LeAndre Benton

Welcome to the Common Time Podcast, a show designed to give music educators practical, inspiring ideas for you and your program. Each week we sit down with world class educators, composers, and conductors to talk about teaching, leadership and building programs that thrive without burning yourself out. So whether you're a band, orchestra, or choir director, our goal is simple to help you grow and stay inspired and remember why you fell in love with teaching music in the first place. This is Season 4, and we're diving even deeper. More real conversations, more actionable takeaways, and more voices shaping the future of music education. Let's get into the episode. Our guest today is Leandre Benton. Welcome, Leandre. Hello. How are you, Sir? I am well, we're so excited that you're on with us today. So Leandre is a, he's a celebrated concert band composer. He's a music educator. He's been a band director. He's also, well, we'll get into all the things he is involved in, but he's an administrator now as well. So I'm looking forward to kind of his perspective from all of these different worlds that he lives in. John, why don't you get us started?

Thanks, David. Hi, Leandre. It's always an honor to see you and I very much look forward to our conversation today. So I'm just going to dive right in since like you've experienced the field of music education from multiple avenues as a director, a principal, a composer. As you look back, I'm curious, has there been anything that has kind of carried over most clearly from each of the roles to kind of bring them all together or how's that been for you?

Yeah. So I would say from being a classroom teacher and then going into public school administration, the first thing that I especially when I got an administration that I realized is that everything sort of stacked on top of each other and everything that I learned from being a band director sort of created sort of scaffolding in a way, and how decisions really fall on people. So, you know, like as a band director John I always thought, you know, if I could just put the right music, they'll be motivated, you know, or if little Susie would just show up on time and rehearsals like this, this whole thing could go well, you know, but it's like, and then when I got into administration and I was like, if this teacher would just answer emails and like just for, you know, but there's so many other things I didn't realize at the time. It's just like they're humans and they have all these other life things going on as well. You know, they're just people and they deserve grace and clemency just like everybody else. I think it really pulled back sort of blanket assumptions I had about things, you know, and I realized that if I thought more so every decision I make now as an administrator, I think about as if I were a band director, how would I want this to land every decision? So it's like, OK, does this need to be an in person meeting or can I send them an e-mail with just some quick bullet points? You know, and there's some things that are kind of not, you know, but I always thought, man, as a band director, this ain't applying to us. Why are we in here with this? We're just going to sit over here. We're going to talk to each other. We're going to laugh at those people across the room because and you know why that is, right? And so the start of the year when things happen. And for instance, when, you know, our band directors are outside burning up, you know, and doing all the things. And I say, y'all just go handle y'all. What I'll do is I get with y'all individually, you know, I'll come and meet with you in the band hall and we'll hash out whatever y'all missed, you know. And is it an extra step? Yes. But is it also integral to the work? Absolutely.

Yeah, no, that, that makes total sense. I think everyone out there probably thanks you for making those decisions based off of your experiences sitting in those meetings and so forth. So it's good to hear that crossover is certainly connected. And now you've gotten into, this is really interesting because you served as an associate director at JJ Pierce High School, where you are now as an administrator, but you got into composition at some point. So I want you to, we're going to shift there for a second. I want you to talk to us a little bit about your composition experience, but then also how did your time really on the podium shape the way you think about writing for ensembles? And then especially in terms of like the rehearsal realities, student experience and like taking musical risks and like where kids are right now. So talk to us about your compositional experience and kind of where you are with that.

Yeah, so man. So I started like dabbling and writing, I was probably in 7th grade I remember. Yes definitely 7th grade and I don't even think they have this anymore but they used to have Finale Notepad which was free and it only allowed so many staves. Y'all remember Notepad? Like that was the thing like, but it only allowed so many staves, you can only do so many things. And so we were broke, so there was no way in Hades I was going to go ask my mom or dad, hey, can you buy this $400.00 software that I don't even know what I'm doing, but I just want to dabble in it like that was not going to happen. So the best thing I could do was download Finale Notepad and, and it, this is kind of actually leads into how I write. I would just look at different scores of composers that I really and truly liked and, you know, sounds that I liked and I would try to emulate that. But the serious part I think got started when I was ending undergrad and was getting ready to become a band director and I was like, I kind of really like this, you know, and ideas would flow and I would study more scores and write more things. And honestly, shaping the way I write is I would say even 75 to 80% based on me being a teacher and what I thought was good music. And so I mean, in many respects, I'm just talking about this with a friend on Facebook the other day. He and I were messaging and I said, I know it's old school. He said, no, no, no, this is what we need back. I said, I know it's really old school, overture style. There's not a lot of rah, rah, rah, you know, but from composers like Mark Williams and Pierre LaPlante and Bob Sheldon, now that I mean, that's like gold. We don't have that anymore. Like I thought Mark Williams was gold, you know, rest his soul. But he was probably, I emulate a lot based off of what Mark Williams did compositionally because I just thought it was just so damn good.

Yeah, I mean the compositional world has changed significantly even in the last 10-15 years of what's being really written for wind band obviously. And in the kinds of sounds that are being elicited and there was a time period where a lot of the output, it didn't even matter how hard it was, just let's just put it out there. And it's like some of it was impossible. Like how do you get them to play in that tessitura? And I don't know that all composers were really thinking about the day-to-day grind. You know, like a top wind ensemble at a university can play it, but nobody else can play it. And so like, where does that fall? So it is kind of unique to hear your experience of like thinking back to, you said old school, but like that it is kind of old school. But I think there is certainly a niche there of that level of music that is important for students. I would argue, and I don't have empirical data on this, but it just seems as though that composers who are teachers and actually working and shaping sounds and creating sounds, recreating sounds, they I think write completely differently than those that don't or that haven't taught.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Like my, you know, if I had a pet peeve, I mean, I just love everybody, so I don't have any pet peeves, but just in case I do, a pet peeve of mine would be if a composer sits behind a computer and writes what sounds great in MIDI and then it does not translate, just as David was saying, it's impossible to play, it's impossible to clean, it's impossible to shape, it's impossible, but it sounds good on MIDI. You know, that's where I think the disconnect happens.

But that's why I think your music is so good. It's because it's so connective, because you understand, you have been there, right? Which actually leads me to my next question. You serve as an administrator, you have a very specific understanding of systems and constraints, probably more than the average public school teacher, right? So how does that perspective change the way that you understand how teachers are really navigating their day-to-day experience, but especially when it comes to ensemble music making?

Yeah, well, man, that's such a good question because I even utilize other teachers who I see struggling for engagement in an English class or another art related class. And I said, hey, I want you today to just stop by the band room by the first or second period. I just want you to just stand in the back. I'll let him know that you're coming so they won't think like you need him to come off the podium. But just stand in there for about 15 to 20 minutes. I want you to just take account of engagement and, you know, the student and teacher relationship and how the onus is put on the student to, you know, come up and think. And we don't just give them the answer, that we continue to probe for a deeper understanding. Like there's so many things that you could get out of just going to the band room and just watching. And I've used that with teachers and the response is always, I always go back, I told you, like, oh my God. And he stopped and he was just like, wait, let me hear you, you on this row, one, two, three, can I hear you all play that line? Like yeah, yeah. And that's, you know, that's honing the craft. But you could do the same thing in other classes. You could do the same thing in a math class, you know, you just have to get a little bit more creative.

So you've had teachers from other disciplines in the music classroom for observation. Wow. What an idea. I'd love to see that.

Yeah. It's just imagine their eyes popping open like, oh, wow, yeah, 'cause it is so different when you think about the classroom setting compared to really engaging students and asking them for feedback. Yeah, asking them to provide immediate feedback with a peer. Yes. That's so different, yeah.

And I, if those teachers respond, and the response is generally pretty open. And when we meet back together, just for me to just collect and go, hey, so what did you think? And be honest and you could tell me like, why did I have to go and sit through that? You know, I don't think I've ever gotten that. And you know, I've utilized orchestra too for individuals to go to, but band since it was kind of my lane, I sort of really pushed them to go for that because I knew that there was going to be some stop, fix, let me hear this, OK, let's put this back together. OK, let me hear the percussion play this where everybody else just sits and counts or whatever the case may be, and they end up going, there was just so much going on and I don't understand, how did he stop and then he knew exactly who it was and what sound was off. I was like, yeah.

Oh, absolutely. I think that's incredible. I would bet there are very few administrators that have used that route to kind of open up a new window of how classroom engagement can work. And we just take it sort of for granted. Like, you know, like this is what we do. We don't even think about how that would apply, you know, across the board. But yeah, it's interesting. So I want to shift back to the administrator hat for a second. And we're going to probably jump all over the place here because you've done so many things, but actually, I changed my mind. I want to go to composition. We'll go back to administration in a second and then we're going to go to basketball. I know that's coming up, it's spinning around in my brain. Was there a moment when you kind of shifted toward composing as something that you claim as part of your identity? Because I know that's something that's been really growing. I've been noticing from you a lot of things like more output and really exciting things coming forward. So I'm curious about that. And then what made that moment sort of possible for you?

Yeah, when I stopped asking myself for permission. And that's the honest, that is the honest easiest way that I could explain it. That is when I stopped asking myself for permission to do this and do that. My brother and I were having a conversation, it's been a while back, and at this point in time I think it was a summer because I was going to different Division One conference trials to try to get in this league or get in that league. And it's tough, it's competitive. Everybody who generally who's there can referee, you know, they call balls and strikes all day long. But there's other factors that are also into play, very similar to going to like a conducting workshop or conducting clinic. Generally everybody who's there knows what they're doing right. But it takes other things that sort of make you stand out in a way. But at any rate, I just came back, I think from Philadelphia and I was talking to my brother and I told him, I said, you know, what if I don't get hired in that league? Like I've put all that time and effort and I don't know. And it kind of started going down this road. And he said, well, if you take every sentence that you start with what if and just change it to even if, you'll be amazed at how your output would be. And I thought about it and I was like, interesting. And even if I don't get hired, it doesn't take away from everything good that I've done to get to here. Even if I don't get this title, it doesn't take away from how rooted and grounded I already am. Like, it completely changed the trajectory. I was so mad at him. I was like, and that was free.

All right. So Leandre, I want to shift back to the composer hat. Was there a moment when for you composing shifted from something that you, you know, you were doing or messing with to something that is like part of who you are, your identity? And if so, what kind of made that possible for you?

Yeah, so I think when I stopped asking myself for permission and sort of really tried to dive deep into what I enjoy, 'cause I do enjoy writing. And one of the first things I think was I was asked, it was a few years back, to potentially write something for UIL sight reading. And I was like, oh yeah, I can do that. Like this, you know, probably gonna be hated, but you know, I think I can do that because I know how that goes. And then I came up with something and then I liked it so much. I was like, I don't think that can be used for sight reading. I think that's going to actually be like a piece that I want everybody to just play. And so I submitted that to C. Alan and Nathan Daughtrey picked it up, maybe two days after I sent it in, I got a personalized e-mail back from him. He said this is good, I like this, I want it, I'm sending you a contract. And I thought, oh man, it's on.

Nice. Yeah, that's exciting. And no idea what I was doing and I still don't, to be fair. Well, I know that you've had conversations with Jim Barnes and some others, so how, what are you doing to build that composition muscle, if you will?

Yeah. And honestly, I feel like based on, if I could do a comparison between other concert band composers, I'm really kind of behind the 8 ball in the sense of studying because I never studied composition formally. Everything that I learned was from being a band director and both studying scores and talking to people who I thought were really, really good at their craft. And again, a lot of my writing is based on, one, what I would have played as a teacher. And secondly, people who I thought were really, really good in the field. And so there's not a lot of people anymore that play Jim Barnes music. That bothers me because he's the GOAT. I don't care what anybody says. And I know Jim Barnes and he's a little brash and he could be rude, but the man knows what he's doing, alright. He knows what he's doing. He's so good at what he does.

He knows how to score for winds, yeah.

Oh, absolutely. And it kind of goes back to the question or the comment you and John made earlier, is a lot of the music that we see now, it's like, you know, the clarinets are down in the low register, then you got brass up real high, and it's like, they're not gonna hear that. You know, it's like, how do you expect this to be heard? You know, about taking care of the melody. And it's when you go back to writing like Jim Barnes, for instance, all of his stuff, there's no doubt of what the melody is and what he wants to be heard. I don't open a score and wonder, I wonder is this important? Like, you know, I just look at them and I'm like, that's it, you know?

Yeah. That's very true, yeah. You know, I do think that there is something that is unique about people who compose for the sight reading process of UIL. So if you have a good piece, you probably shouldn't submit it for that process. So I'm glad that you didn't do that because those pieces are certainly interesting for sure.

I think unique is the right word there, John. Unique is the right word. And honestly, honestly, hindsight, hindsight I was hindsight, I look back and go, I would have been, I wouldn't have even made it. Like if that had gone through, there would have been. So I wouldn't, people would have like my house would have been on fire. And not that it was too difficult, but it was if there's not enough time in the parameters that's given for you to be successful and do everything on the page that's indicated. Correct. Yeah, like it's natural. You know, I don't miss that. All I have to do is it, but I think my music ad students how to how to do that process. Yeah, yeah. Do this and this and then like, I'm so thankful I have to do that anymore.

Actually, if it's OK to keep the composer hat on, but just take a bit of a different approach to it. So as a composer and administrator and band director, you know probably better than most how a budget within a band program works, right? And so either if a band director is buying the music or commissioning a composer, how do you think about writing music that is both meaningful and practical without compensating artistic integrity but considering the constraints of the public school budget?

Yeah, man, that's good. I think it wrote back to yeah, that is like really good. It really goes back to like the rehearsal space. And like OK, I can write this really, really cool thing for the woodwind section. But are they gonna end up spending half the rehearsal time trying to hash this out just to make it do whatever. Like it's like, do we do they need that or do I want that? You know, and that's what it kind of becomes, you know it is a is it is this going to somehow make them perform better or is this going to somehow fuel my compositional ego? And I say that and I say that as a person who I'm a deep empath. And when I write things and especially slow lyrical, lyrical works, which is just, that's kind of been on the horizon now here lately. When I'm writing so lyrical works, I think to myself, if I do it this way, are they gonna spend half their time trying to figure out how to tune this chord or can I just snack it like a snowman? And we walk away and it's still gonna sound good. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna get the same result. You know what I mean? Because there's so many times I can do here. I'm like, man, I know this says it's a grade 3, but that chord is not a that's not grade 3, that's not grade 3. Or I hear something that I'm like, oh man, you have all these like different inner like, you know, Contra point of right. I'm like, that is not. And so a lot of, you know, a lot of I write has to be centered around me as a band director, 'cause I, I would, I still do, I still do. I would open scores and go, yeah, we're not playing that one. I go to the next one. I'm like, OK. And what worries me the most is when I see rest and who's not playing because then I'm get whoever is playing is about to get exposed. So I'm like, OK, let's see, because we can all play 2D real well. We all we all kind of do this right we have a stack of scores I'm considering the 60 pieces for the entirety of the of my programming for the year. I'll I'll just be going through. All right. This is from a curricular perspective. These things are important. This is great. This is great. Yeah. I find a section that like Nope, this isn't going to come together in the time that I have. I'm not doing the piece. I'm just not going to do it right. And so now some things we are the we that are teaching the, the Future Music educators and performers of the world, it's our responsibility to introduce these things to them. However, I remembered distinctly when I was teaching public school, that was not the case, right? So I'm trying to give them, they're trying to give them skills that the students need in order to progress musically and artistically throughout their time from 6th grade through high school through college, you know, so on and so forth. Love that. But if it's not, if the juice isn't worth the squeeze? I'm just not doing the. You know, but that goes back to my point earlier. Most of those people that are writing stuff that I would that falls under the juice isn't, you know, worth the squeeze. They haven't taught. Now, there are people who are insanely talented as composers that have never taught. So please don't anyone that's out there, no misunderstand me, don't like, DM me about that. Be quiet about that. I'm just telling you.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you can. I can tell as a trombonist if I see glissandos in a piece, I'm like, they can't even do that. Like that's not, that's between a pair of notes. Like, that's not even going to happen. And I immediately know, yeah, I, OK, that one definitely ain't gonna make it, you know?

But, you know, it's, I think really good composition, really good composition is a cause, a consortium in a way of three things. It is musical intent and musical integrity. Because I think even grade 1-2 and three pieces can still be musical and they are. I mean, if you, I mean look at it and really Owen's piece, I mean, people see his name and they don't even freak out because they know it's got to be very, very well written. And the orchestration is going to be spot on. Even with my band that has no tenor sax, one Alto, no Berry, a bass clarinet, and three soprano clarinets, the whole thing is still going to make sense and sound. I don't know how he does this. It's going to work and it really bothers me because I can't figure it out I guess. It's all part of the process though. Yeah, I mean, writing great is hard. I only have 5 crayons, that's it. And it's like, what can I do with the five different colors, you know? And in many ways, writing a.5, I can't even have a 5 quart. I like. In most cases, like that's not what happened. So, you know, and I was I was talking to one of my mentors about, you know, getting back to the really quick telling Jim Barnes, one of my favorite pieces that he ever wrote was Albemarle Overture. And Albemarle was actually written in like a junior high band. But the ending to Albemarle Overture, this is insanely woodwind lick that lasts for like 16 bars or whatever the case is. It's it's a little wicked and I junior hobby or something like what? But the standards were also different back then as well, right? And I think over time, because standards have changed and there's been so much good that has happened to music education and especially in terms of technology and staffing and finances and systems and infrastructure and stability, like all of these things over time that have progressed. It's really allowed. That's why a lot of Texas bands, the middle schools can play the top band can play great for you know, which is that's a really cool thing, you know, and in and in some cases we're lacking in other and other areas as well. So I think the musical intent has to be there. The musical integrity has to be there. There has to be some working knowledge of how all the instruments work. There has to be some working on for how every instrument works and for me, I hate it as a bandwagon. You're getting ready to look at a piece and going. Why isn't the percussion plan? Like they put this whole thing and they're barely playing and so and if and I should get studied on this and it probably has been that the amount of time that the percussion plays versus the winds in a in a rehearsal setting and are they truly getting the same musical experience as a wind player. Like I would be very curious to see what that's like. And then you both know as band directors and taught in public school that half the time in the beginning of a rehearsal, while you're warming up the winds, the percussion, if they're not picking up sticks and getting ready for whatever piece you're about to play, they had no idea what's going on. They're back in the back jacking around. Then you're gonna have to get on to them because now you said start in, you know, rehearsal 16. And they're like, oh, we're on the wrong piece. Hold on. Right. And so that's you have to have a working knowledge as composer how all the instruments work. And thirdly, I will say is your ego has to be subservient to the musical intent. Like you have to somehow be willing to go OK for this one. Maybe I won't ruin that by putting this thing in. Like, it's not really like we don't need that, right? Like, yeah, you know, just because you can doesn't mean you should and just because Finale can do it, doesn't mean you should.

It's right. Thank you very. Perfectly, you know. It sounds great. My computer sounds real good.

My I had the best man in the world right now.

Oh, that's good, man. OK, So I want to shift to this is this question is it's this is more kind of upper level because of the experiences that you've had and you've seen how decisions that are made above the classroom can ripple directly really into the student experience. So I'm curious what your thoughts are on this. Do you think what? What do you think educators and composers most need to understand about one another in this space right now?

Oh man, I think educators and composers are often going from for the same kind of idea, but they're speaking different dialects. And what I mean by that is the composer is trying to figure out. What am I going to do? So that this piece can somehow be the groundbreaking thing that's going to set me and move me from where I am to the trajectory of whatever the case is. And then you have the band director who's looking for the piece that's going to make them sound. But like it's, it's so like 6 in one hand and half a dozen in the other. Because a part of me says as an administrator, well, if we would do a better job of teaching, you know, amateur and tonality and tongue placement and air and how to breathe and how to articulate, then, you know, you could do all those things that you want. Then the composer side of me is like, well, if you weren't writing half of this stuff that don't belong in a grade 2 1/2, we also wouldn't have this problem, which is also why I go back to the old standard stuff because it's just so good, you know, and you don't have all those problems. And, and in Texas, I think this is really sort of permeated out to other areas too. But there's something. And I, I'm gonna say this, and this is not a knock to anybody, any state, any region, any area, nothing like that. But there is this like sort of tacit understanding that if my band cannot play in tune and it lacks the fundamentals to be able to articulate cleanly and play precisely, then we have to play pieces that are on the faster side so that somehow the adjudicator can't hear the inconsistencies in a slower lyrical work. But here's the problem, you know it's true, but here's the that like that's that with John real quick, he's like. But here's the thing though, is, and you both know it as like a judge or as an adjudicator, I hear all the same inconsistencies faster. Like everything that you didn't want to play in a lyrical tune so that they could listen to. I just heard it really fast. They still can't articulate right. They still plan out of tune. That core never settled. You know it. It's just, it's. I wish it. There I wish that there was this like merge of. And This is why I think that, you know, former band directors in many cases, or some of the better composers because they have a deeper understanding of how all the instruments work and kind of what teachers want to play and what the kids want to play too, you know? Yeah. I just think we speak different dialects, you know, but we're aiming for the same thing.

Yeah. Yeah, I can absolutely see that the connection there or disconnect is probably a better word for it, yeah. So then so with your kind of broad overview of the band ecosystem. In your experience, where do you see the like greatest opportunity for growth or rethinking inside the current culture of band today?

What do you think? There has to be, I think, more of an emphasis on really good music making and somehow, and I, I hope I don't make anybody up there when I say this, but there has to be a less emphasis on the kids exist so I can do my thing. That's at the that's honestly what I think. It's like this idea that they exist so that we can go and compete at grand Nets and somehow try to get the next whatever. And I yeah. And that and that'll go down another whole rabbit hole. And you, you're more than welcome to bleep that out, David. But I, I do think that there has to be a more of an emphasis on the music making because I don't want to piss anybody off. I really don't.

Yeah, yeah. You know we've got a soapbox question coming up, but that I mean you kind of jump, jump to it. No, I think just to piggyback on them because I, you know. I. Who knows what the motivations are of someone else? I don't know. I don't know what someone else's motivation is in front of the students. But I think we can all agree that if, if the students aren't first in the process, if that if we're not thinking about the people 1st and their experience and their growth. And since we happen to be in the domain of music, we're talking about musical growth as well, not just human growth, but those things have to be sort of coupled together. And if the competition fits that mold for you as a person, I'm, I'm cool with it. I have no problem with that. But there is, I think, I think what you're responding to, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but sometimes the, the tail does wag the dog a bit. And if the student, if the student experience becomes something that's forced because of we're trying to get to the next level of whatever the, whatever that may be, then we have to take a step back and, you know, I, we don't, I think on the podcast, we, we've tiptoed around kind of the idea of like competition and, and those kinds of things and always trying to find balance because I don't think there's a right and a wrong. Everything's Gray. But it's, you know, when you start seeing students that are that drop out of music after high school because they're just so tired, then, well, maybe the balance isn't what we think it is. And then the question is like, OK, do we have the, do we have the ability to go? You know what? I don't think that's best for kids long term. I'm not talking about best for kids 6 or 12, Best for kids from the point they 18 to 40. Like, what are they doing after 18? And how am I shaping that as a director based on all the choices I make? So I yeah, that's how I look at it. Honestly, I think, you know, you're right. We if the kids are first. Drop the ball.

Yeah, My, my, my viewpoint on that is very similar. And I, I guess I'm just a little bit, you know, too forthcoming with it. But that what I'm trying to get at is now is yes, we, I think for years we saw exactly what you were saying, the kids who were burned out. But now it's inverted because now the director is leaving. Yeah. And I think that we as a community have created something that is not sustainable and it is not viable. That I agree. And that is this idea that somehow I have to keep up with all of these achievements. And here, here's the thing about this. And I, I try my, my mom, I love my mom. She's so sweet. But she, she, she oftentimes she'll say, I do. Yeah, she, she oftentimes will say something like, you know, well, you're an administrator and you compose and you referee Division One basketball and all those things. And I try not to let any of that rock me, even in a positive way, because what I do is totally separate from who I am. And I hope that when people see me, they see that Leandro is just a good guy and he's kind of funny as hell. I hope that's what they see, right? It kind of looks good, you know? I hope that's what they see. Because here, just as much as people will praise me for the composition and the Division One and then this and then that, I know it can also be inverted and then somehow another. I will start to allow that to subconsciously reflect on my worth and my capacity, which is not true. Right, and it goes back to what if and even if, you know, even if I never get the praise, even if I never get the award for the peace, it doesn't take away from how good this peace is, right? And so I think that when you're so grounded in you and what you do and you know that the work is truly is truly grounded in and anchored in helping young folks and helping individuals, then all of the rest becomes noise. You know what I mean? It's about helping the students, I feel so passionately about this. We as band directors, it should never be about US ever, ever. And like, if I have a well, now I have two. If I were to have two pet peeves, but I like everybody. So I don't have any pet peeves. But if I did have two pet peeves, the second one would be people's egos are too damn big. Like it's not about you. It's not about you.

Yeah. But it's hard. It's hard because when you start winning, it's addicting like winning is addicting when you and success is addicting and it doesn't it yeah, it doesn't take long for all sometimes all of that it and the thing about it is it doesn't happen overtly. And so it slowly starts to manifest and starts becoming this thing. And then there's this like external, you know, expectation that, oh, that's that, that's the band. Like, that is, that's the great. And now people are like expecting you to uphold this thing, you know, I mean, it's like, right.

Yeah. It does become think about I'm. Sorry, we're talking. I'm no good job you. Listening. There's a delay. I don't mean to be rude. I'm sorry.

No, it's good. OK.

So I do want to say though, think of the best programs in the country and best teachers in the country. I would put Amanda Drinkwater at the top of that list and Darren Davis and others. If you look at them and how they teach their program, it is always about the students, right? You know. About them because of the quality that the students achieve, because they're phenomenal teachers, but it's not their personality, it's not their, you know, they aren't checking the box. They just happen to be really good at what they do. And I think that like that's a lesson I think for all of us.

Yeah, so. Sorry, I didn't mean for the like, no. I think that's all really good. So you said something a second ago that I just want to draw attention to which you, you non musical, you're an NCAA women's basketball official, right? Like you're out there in Division One. Division One, how long you been doing that?

I started referring when I was 17 and it was a way to make money. Yeah, just flat out being honest, it was a way to make money and I remember man, I've got so many bad memories, but I just remember going to game sites and not being very good. Now I play basketball, but I wasn't really the player per se. My brother was and now he's a basketball high school coach. But you know, I knew internally I was the musician like I and everybody else kind of knew that, but that was just like the thing. But I somehow still wanted to stay connected to the game. And well, now I told him I have the best seat in the house because I get to be on the floor. But yeah, right. I, it's cool. Sometimes I've gotten run over on the floor, but sometimes when I look back, I go, there's no way I should have made it this far because starting out, I didn't know where to stand. I didn't know where to be. I didn't know what to look at. And even with help and like clinics and things. But then it got serious because I came home one day, or dad picked me up from a game and I was like, I'm done. I even remember the school site back home where I was after I finished the game, which I won't say, but I left the gym, Dad was outside to pick me up. And I just remember this coach was berating and I internally was just like, I can't do this. And so I told my dad. I said, well, that's the last game I'm doing. I'm not doing another game. And he said, hell you are. He said, you got a game on Friday. I was like, no, I ain't doing that. I'm done. They yell at me. I said, I'm just doing what I see. And he's like, you will be fine. And hindsight, I go that was probably one of the best things that ever happened to me because what he was trying to tell me was if I ran from that, I would always run when things get harder.

Yeah, that's good advice. Then you're going to be fine. Keep after it.

I'm trying.

Yeah, so now. Are you planning to keep moving up? Are you trying to go to the big times here and do the women's NBA?

Yeah, you know. That was when I was younger, that was so much of a thing. But as I got older and wiser, I had to realize, because getting into that, many of the NBA basketball referees most people know have never even refereed college basketball. I think some of them have never even done NCAA. Some of them have just done like AAU or high school. Yeah, some of them only done like JUCO, you know. But when I was younger, there was definitely a thing. But I think it was a thing because I thought it was really cool. Like I'm just being honest. But as I got older and I realized just a little bit more grounded in who I am and what I enjoy, I knew that NCAA was just kind of. I feel the feel that I get from college basketball is a little bit more competitive. There's this yeah, this very much sense of good healthy athleticism and competition where NBA can be a little bit of oh man.

Oh absolutely. Where are you going in the NBA? I love college basketball. That's one of my one of my favorite things. But so Leandre, do you, I mean, we've administrator, band director, official for NCAA Division One, you know, so you got a lot of things going on here. I'm curious, just as kind of a as we wrap up things, if a young teacher, you've got a lot of perspectives. If a young teacher or composer were listening and feeling pulled in multiple directions, what perspective might help them trust the long view of their own path? What do you think?

It's so funny, I'm from Longview. So when you said Longview, I thought, oh, it's my hometown. I thought no, Leandre, your path. Your path doesn't have to make sense to you right now to be valid. Like I don't think, I don't think that right now where you are, it's, you're not going to have everything figured out. It's not going to make sense. Things don't always make sense. And I'm a person who thrives off of clarity. And so when I don't have it, sometimes I can start spiraling. We want, OK, I need to know what the floor is, you know, but yeah, the uncertainty is part of the growth and it's certainly OK because that's how you're going to mature and get better at what you do. And I very much so believe that where you are right now is exactly where you're supposed to be. It's exactly where you're supposed to be. So often we think that, you know, I'm behind or I didn't get or somebody stood in the way of this opportunity for me. And I'm saying all of this from experience because I felt at times I didn't get the role because somebody stood in the way of me, or I felt that I didn't get the gig in that conference because somebody had a stumbling block in the way. But the reality is that life is all about alignment. It is all about alignment and being in position so that when the opportunity comes, all you do is just walk through the door. But so often we want to get to places too soon and you can't sustain. You know, had I gone into Division One basketball when I was 22, there's no way that would have been sustainable. If a coach, yeah, I mean, you got a thing. I mean, you're working in Division One basketball game or even D2 or D3 for that matter, where the coach's job is really reliant upon them winning. It's not a high school coaching job where, you know, you're under contract and you move to a term and once you're on a term, you're there for God knows how long. And you doing that to be great, you know, treat your kids well, do your gig, move on down the road, you're good. NCAA, not so much. They want you to win. But had I gone in that too soon, yeah, like you got to perform and do the job. But had I gone in that too soon and a coach would have yelled at me and I would have thought that was somehow a life sentence of all my worth, then I would have not been sustainable in that. And I only say that now because it's hindsight, but in the moment, you know, like, it's like, man, I should have had that opportunity and I knew I was supposed to have that gig. Well, the truth is, maybe so. Maybe so, but just not yet, right?

No. I think that's fantastic advice. So now is the time where we ask a few questions of all of our guests and so Leandre, I will take the first one. You were kind of talking about something similar to this earlier, but do you have a soapbox topic and it can be anything?

A soapbox topic. Oh yes, this is going to make people mad but I feel like David and John, I regret I feel like you just agree. When I was a band director, the amount of time that I used the metronome was barely. And what I have found out, this is my theory, so you know, take it for what it's worth. I think that the more that they're relying upon the metronome, the less they are inclined to actually count in time. And I have found out that the younger the player and the more that they tap the little toe on the ground, the more it's actually not in time. And the moment I say hey everyone stop tapping and just play, then it all somehow clicks. Like that was really good. You want to know why? Because you weren't all tapping at the same random times. But we are so, and you can tell this is so much, I'm about to get into it. It's because, like the metronome in many pieces, is symbolic to control. That's a quote for somebody. The metronome, in many respects, is a symbolism of control. It is that. It's like when you see it all the time, conductors who feel like they have to give a four for nothing every single time. And I'm like, wow, as a performer, I'm a little bit, the word I should use, offended that you need to micromanage me to start playing. You know, I have a bachelor's degree and a masters and I definitely don't need you to micromanage me to start sound. But if you go back to the root of it, I think that there are many little things, but if you go back to the root of it, like all the prep before starting off and the loud blaring of the metronome and using it ad nauseam is all centered around control. And that's a little deep. It's a little deep. That's what it's about, control. Not in a manipulative sense, but in the sense that I don't feel that they can do it without me. That kind of control. Not in a manipulative sense, but in the sense of if I don't do this thing, they won't do it without me.

Yeah, well. It's just really interesting because the metronome, we've never actually discussed that on the podcast, I don't think. I think we've all used it and we all use it. I used it. I did an honor band last weekend. I used the metronome all the time. I used the metronome to create tempo for all of us in the room and I turned it off. We didn't play with the metronome like I didn't rehearse with the metronome. I'll use it as a tool for us to understand where tempo needed to be. And then we played. If we weren't at that tempo, I could use that as a tool to recalibrate. And I think it just depends on how you use it. Because if you turn it on and you always play with it, then it does become like there's a snare drum back there just going click, click or a woodblock or whatever. Like we're outside. And I do think there's value like if you're trying to teach the understanding that we're not playing in time, that's fine. But just turning on the metronome does not teach a person to subdivide. It does not teach a person to fill both subdivisions fully with sound, with air.

So the metronome, it is a tool. And I think the problem becomes is there are, it's a misnomer. I think we've, I say we collectively, the body of teachers, have decided that like this is something we need. We need a big speaker at the front of the room. Some of them have a lot of speakers in the group. Yeah, I mean. It's so loud. It is just so loud. And it's very interesting, the group that I worked with this past weekend, a couple weekends ago, their time was pretty strong. It wasn't perfect, but I didn't use that. Like I went in going assuming they're all going to play with great time, I'm trusting that you're going to play with the time that I give you from the front of the room. That's what I have to, at least in my opinion nowadays, many years later. And I used the metronome a lot when I was a much younger teacher, but now I don't. I actually look at this as that is a tool to help me understand how we are relating to each other vertically and that is it. Nothing more, nothing less. If I turn it on, it becomes a crutch. If I just leave it on, yeah, they're not having to think for themselves anymore, they're not having to subdivide.

Yeah, and how many of us have turned the metronome off midstream because, well, we're not quite with it, so let's just click that off. You know. We've done it. So that's really interesting. That could actually be an entire topic. So it's a soapbox obviously for you. It's, I think for me, it's something I've had to grow through. Like how important is it? I think it's really important. Why would I not use this tool that was created to help us understand time better? But at the same time, if I'm constantly relying upon it, the students are now doing the same, you know, so for me, if I'm thinking like, OK, I want this, we really have to hold this at 160. OK, now that can help us. Like we're going to set this at 160 and notice like we're not with this now, what's happening that's keeping us from doing that. Now let's rehearse on that. Let's make that work so it can be helpful to us. When it becomes a crutch, and I also hate, this is my soapbox now. Sorry, I clearly have a soapbox here. I don't like when the metronome becomes the conductor. The metronome isn't the conductor because I will see people click that thing on and just, there's nothing happening here. It's all just the box. Just go with the box. Like, well, what about the communication between the players and the conductor in this two way street? I don't know. There's a soapbox. I got to be quiet. It's time to move on to my question now, which is, is there a particular book or books that have inspired you in your journey?

Oh man. Yes, and it may be up on my shelf, but there is a really, really great book and a lot of the work that I've been doing, especially like internally and just focusing on myself and you know, how can I make myself, you know, and especially as an even as an administrator and a person and composer, which a lot of this year really, really sort of took hold too. I picked up a book that's titled Don't Believe Everything You Think by Joseph Nguyen, and it's really, really good because I know that as an empath I'm in here a lot. And that sort of ties into the, you know, man, what if I don't get this? You know, it's a lot of the thinking. And the book by Joseph Nguyen talks about how a lot of the despair that we endure as people, it's sort of self-inflicted. Like it's almost like we're bracing for impact before impact even occurs. It's like I need to worry about this thing prematurely so that somehow I can protect myself and it won't happen or the pain will be less and nothing has happened. And so the book is really good because it really puts a spin on sort of how we think. And I recommend it to anybody. Don't Believe Everything You Think. And yeah, I love it. It puts a spin on how you think internally and how not every situation that appears to be danger is really danger. You know.

Great suggestion. Yeah. Alright. Well, I'll tell you, this has been a fascinating conversation, Leandre. Thank you. So I'm going to ask you the question and arguably the most important. So what is your favorite time signature?

My favorite time signature, probably 6/8. I love this. I just love this. Yeah. And we don't think 6/8. Another soapbox. 6/8 is a great time signature.

However, the correct answer was common time.

Oh. Dang it, can we cut that out? Teresa, she's like we just added everything today.

What a great conversation, Leandre. What a, you're just wonderful and all the things that you do I think are shaping a very exciting career for you, right? Because ultimately with even with the basketball piece, with the administrator piece, with the band director piece, with the composer piece, you have a unique understanding of students and teachers. And that is a gift. And I am envious of that. So thank you for your service. First of all, thank you for all that you do for students.

Absolutely. And you know, Leandre, before we jump off, your publisher, is it C. Allen? Yeah, that's one of them. But Wingert and Kyle Fisher. Gotcha. So if you're out there looking for pieces of music, Leandre's got a growing catalog of really great pieces. So check those out and look for more because I know he's constantly, he'll send me stuff every now and then. So hey, what do you think about this one? So every time he sends you one, it's just, it's honestly, I can hear the voice developing even more and more. So it's so exciting to get to talk to you today. Thanks so much for being with us and sharing your thoughts.

Yes sir.

And that's a wrap on today's episode. Thanks for spending part of your day with us on the Common Time Podcast. If today's conversation gave you something to think about or something to try with your students, we'd love for you to share this episode with a colleague, and you can also follow us on social media for episode clips, behind the scenes content, and updates to our upcoming guests. And if you haven't already, please be sure to subscribe so that you never miss an episode. Until next time, keep making music and keep making a difference.