Welcome to the Common Time Podcast, a show designed to give music educators practical, inspiring ideas for you and your program. Each week we sit down with world class educators, composers, and conductors to talk about teaching, leadership and building programs that thrive without burning yourself out. So whether you're a band, orchestra, or choir director, our goal is simple to help you grow and stay inspired and remember why you fell in love with teaching music in the first place. This is season 4, and we're diving even deeper. More real conversations, more actionable takeaways, and more voices shaping the future of music education. Let's get into the episode. Our guest today is Laura Jackson. Welcome, Laura.
Hello, it's wonderful to see you, both of you, John and David.
So Laura is the music director and conductor of the Reno Philharmonic Orchestra. And tonight we are exploring podium to classroom, expanding how we lead, how we listen, and how we teach. John, why don't you get us started?
Thanks, David. Hi, Laura. It's always, always so good to see you. So many of our listeners are currently leading ensembles every day, as are you. Obviously you're at the highest level. So I'm just curious, when you think about the role of a conductor, what are some perspectives or approaches that can deepen the way that we lead in those settings? It can be artistically, it can be people management, or I mean how do you feel about that?
So, you know, although I am primarily conducting professional orchestras now, I have conducted all levels of orchestras and still have the wonderful opportunity to conduct young musicians from time to time. And I think that there's something in common with whatever level ensemble is in front of you in that as a conductor, we're trying to be helpful. We're trying to do something that coaxes everyone in front of us into a collective making of beauty. And so sometimes we need to do things. If it's a very advanced ensemble, maybe they've played the piece before, but they haven't played it with me, then how can I make them comfortable? How can I make them, you know, so that they know traffic direction, they know where I'm going next. They know my tempos, they know what I'm doing. Where if it's an ensemble that perhaps they've never played this Beethoven Symphony before, or maybe they've never played a Symphony at all by Beethoven before, then it's bringing them into the magic of what that is, what the music is about, what I love so much and what I think the composer is getting at. So that might vary the kinds of things that I'm pointing out in rehearsal, but really it's all the same thing. You're aiming toward the performance or the realization of the music, even if it's just in a classroom, in a way that is gratifying for everyone making the music and for anyone listening.
Yeah, you mentioned, you said the word magic, which I love the idea that we're helping to create magical moments, I guess, or something about the music that is magical. And since there's a lot of — we have a large education base and we're thinking about building rehearsals for students, you know, before a rehearsal even begins, I feel like there are so many decisions that shape what's going to happen in the room. So how do you think about planning and structuring rehearsal time in a way that's going to lead to that magic, the musical growth that happens in rehearsal and again for the magic?
Sure. Well, the first step is knowing the music really well yourself and knowing the vision that you have for it. So what you feel like are the most important things to make this music come to life and become a three-dimensional thing. And so when I'm starting a rehearsal process, it's a first meeting on that piece of music. I am thinking about working sort of from the outside in. I'm working from the most basic of let's figure out how to get through this. Let's figure out how to start and end and do things in the middle together. But then I'm also teaching — it's like the basic ingredients of the piece. If it's a piece that's really focused on sound and on beauty of sound, then I'll mention that in the beginning and we'll do some work maybe on the exposition or the first section where we're really focused on what I think is the priority of this composer. If it's maybe rhythm, maybe there's a certain sort of rhythmic vitality or pulse that really makes the piece take flight, then it's about ensemble and it's about the steadiness of the pulse and getting everybody to feel that and create it together. And so then it's details of articulation and whatever. So I'm thinking about however many rehearsals I have, and I'm thinking, how do I begin to tell this story with the musicians in front of me in a way that they walk away from each rehearsal understanding more about this piece of music and where we're going with it.
Right. I love that you started that honestly with knowing the music. I was of course studying this earlier today and I'm working on a piece called Sweet Dreams by Stephen Bryant. So a piece for wind ensemble and it's based off of the first movement of Holst's first suite, the Chaconne. And in there's a moment toward the end, the high point of the piece where it's the maestoso from the actual Chaconne, letter F in the Holst. And he rescores it — or he scores it exactly like Holst did, but he adds in a lot of dreamlike material. And I've conducted the piece twice now. This will be my third time. And as I was digging in again today, I found something that I had not seen in the previous two times. And it's the Chaconne in the low reeds and the low brass. And he takes, he displaces the bassoons by an octave for one measure and has this real long sweeping downward chromaticism and they're back to the very lowest octave. And it's mixed in though with a lot of other woodwind stuff that I before created as part of the woodwinds. And I'm now watching. I was like, why have I not emphasized that moment in the last few times? Because it's so unique. He obviously very purposefully put this in for one measure to offset by two octaves and then just this diving motion back down to the low brass. And I was asking myself, how did I miss this? I mean, I've studied this piece, but you know, I just didn't connect those two dots. And again, knowing the music — it's like even when I've tried, I've missed something. So I just think it's so important that you said that.
You know, I think of it a little bit differently because the number of times that I have kicked myself for not noticing something, you know, coming back to Tchaikovsky's Fifth Symphony for the umpteenth time and having studied it for countless hours, countless hours. I mean like weeks, months. I just don't even know over my whole career. And then I'll notice something that I've never noticed before and I'm like, oh my goodness, how is it possible that I didn't realize that the bassoon is playing the melody with the cellos here? I mean, that happens all the time, you know, and so it's really like with every piece of music that you come back to, it's like a relationship, it's like a marriage. You know, you get to know it more deeply and you experience it differently every time you come to it. I tend to learn music with my hands in that I write, I mark my scores, and when I do that, it imprints it in my mind. I don't even necessarily have to see the marking again. I mean, I do use them, but if there's a way in which a tactile experience is very, very helpful for me. And I had trouble at first coming back to a score that I had done before because I didn't have that. It was already marked, you know, I didn't have the way in. And so I've discovered now that, you know, singing lines, playing lines, you know, being physical with thinking through it and moving my hands and whatever I can do to sort of bring it to life. I always experience something new and bring out something different that I didn't see before. And that's kind of the wonder of what we do, right?
Absolutely. Part of the magic for us is that not only is live music never the same twice, but when you come back to a piece, your experience takes you in a slightly different direction, which is wonderful. You know, it's so interesting that you say that about marking your score and then if you already have the markings, you don't get that same experience. This is interesting because I must have loaned the score out, so I had to purchase a new one and it was a fresh score. So going through it and again, creating my markings and re-situating how I'm hearing, how I'm listening, what I'm going to ask for in rehearsal — that's how I discovered that. If I had used a previously marked score, I might have just glossed right over it again. So that's a really interesting comment to just kind of ponder.
Yeah. And of course, you know, score marking, everybody's different. There's some people that don't mark at all, and they know the score just as well as somebody who marks a lot. And you can also kind of fall into a situation where you just mark and don't really learn it, you know? So you have to be careful that you use the marking in a great way. But a fresh score can be so remarkable, or marking different things, writing notes in the margins, whatever helps you to look at it anew. I prefer a fresh score each time.
Do you really? So do you have like 6 copies or 10 or — pick your thing.
I just start again. I just start the whole thing again every time.
Oh my goodness. Wow. That — just me and actually David, remember our conducting teacher? He marked nothing. Yeah, nothing at all. And I go to my first lesson with him and I forget what piece we were doing and it was — I marked it, man. I studied the score. It was beautiful. I've seen John's earlier markings, John conducting this. It was quite colorful. Right, I mean, it was apologizing every page. And he picks this — he takes the score from me and he's like, wow, you really spent some time on this. Yes sir, I have. I'm ready to go, man. Closes the score. So where's the first bass drum hit? You know what? And he looks at me in his way and he says less time coloring, more time studying, you know. And I still remember that vividly.
Yeah. Laura, your career is incredible in so many ways, from conducting the Chicago Symphony to public school groups, strings and winds, concert bands. I mean, you've done everything, which is unbelievably impressive. So how do you feel about this upcoming sentence: when musicians feel a sense of ownership in the music, everything changes. So what are some ways that you've found to foster that kind of engagement in an ensemble? What do you think?
Oh goodness, it's so true, isn't it? You know, seeing the light go on, and when musicians sort of get it and they believe in themselves and they believe in their teammates, they believe in the players around them. You know, there's so much about what we do that's like being a coach, being a parent — you know, you're a leader in terms of developing a culture. And that culture is about enabling and it's about creating a place for people to express and people to sing and to engage their hearts in something, you know, with other people. So there's a vulnerability in that. And I think respecting that — when the flute player has a solo, when the clarinet is set, you know that's a big deal. And they're really stepping up and giving their interpretation on something. And although I will shape and mold and sort of direct a piece in a certain way so that we have a cohesive interpretation at the end, it's always doing it in a way that's respectful — that's crucial, really, really crucial. And that honors just the act of making music, that honors what the musicians in front of you are doing by picking up an instrument and even making the effort, and you know, by listening, by engaging with their instrument, but also with other people. I really believe in approaching my work about the piece of music and with great enthusiasm for it. And if I am at the core of my being about joy when I am approaching music — it's not that I'm always joyful, but if I can communicate a seriousness, but a commitment to the gift that we have when we make music together and also to that piece of music and how incredible it is that somebody created it and wrote it down — I mean, it's amazing what composers do. So if I come to it with that kind of seriousness, but then I am respectful of the people in front of me and always very positive about making them feel safe and appreciated, I think that really helps them engage.
Yes. Obviously with the idea of safety — and I've been there's something that's been on my mind for a while about the idea of belonging before risk. If we create a sense of belonging, then we have the ability for risk to exist. Otherwise, a student's not going to take a risk. A musician's going to take less of a risk, probably even at the professional level, if they don't sense belonging. Collaborative nature, something I would assume even crosses the boundaries from 6th grade band to Chicago Symphony. So it's interesting.
That is beautifully put. That is beautifully put. Belonging before risk.
Yeah, so you used the word communicate a moment ago and I want to dig into that a bit. You said if you can communicate and then you went on with the rest of the sentence. But I feel that conductors communicate in so many ways. We have gesture, our language, our presence. You mentioned just how you can make the room feel in a way. So kind of just let's hone in on that. How do you think about communication in terms of musical ideas? Like how do we communicate musical ideas clearly and efficiently within the rehearsal? Because we still have a job we've got to get done, obviously.
Yeah, you know, there are so many ways of doing it — with the gesture, language, presence, all those things. Well, you know, I think that it's good to always try to do it with your hands first and try to show it. Now of course, that depends on the awareness — the level of the ensemble in front of you and whether they have the skill level to really take that from you. Maybe they don't know what certain gestures mean and then you have to work with them on that to sort of teach them how to translate what you're doing. But I do think that there's so much about conducting that's subliminal and we know this — you know, you do a huge gesture, you want them to play soft and you go big, it's just simply not going to happen. So I do think that we have to be mindful about what our hands are doing and what our bodies are doing. And then I think it's about efficiency of language — or it's really about getting the point across. And so if it takes a story, if it takes a metaphor, go for it. If it takes three words, do that. But there's so much that is learned by doing, by playing, by taking this part with this part, this voice with that voice, taking a piece apart and rehearsing it in a certain way that illuminates the textures and illuminates the structure. If we work that way, I think there's a lot that they pick up. And I do believe that players get more from showing them things and efficient use of language and then doing, than from long lectures.
Exactly. I love the efficiency part. It's interesting. So I mean, the old adage of top 10% conduct 90% — I mean, we've all heard that before. So there was a study from a PhD student at Michigan. This was a bit ago, probably 2014. David, I think I talked to you about this once, where this person came into every conductor at the University of Michigan for an entire term and videoed every one of our rehearsals — band, choir, orchestra and jazz. And I'm constantly thinking about this, don't talk too much, don't talk too much. And so I try really hard not to. And even being cognizant of it, I spoke 33% of the rehearsal sequence. You know, and is there some golden rule — is the 10% really the mark? It depends. What rehearsal are you in? Are you in your dress rehearsal? Are you in your first rehearsal? You know, OK, so maybe I'm just making excuses because I know that I talk too much. But it's interesting though, right?
Yeah. Well, yeah, I think it illuminates a little bit of the process too, though, because I want to — if I think about this holistically now — we started with the idea of knowing the music. And if I tie together my ability to show something, I can't show it if I haven't ingested it, if I haven't internalized it on such a high level. I literally can't move at a level that's going to get truly what I want. So then because I don't know the music, I go to language and I can't be efficient with my language because I've already set myself up through not knowing. So there's so much that rests on really the process of getting there — if you want the magic, I'm going to go back to that word. If you really want magic to happen in your rehearsals and your performance. And some of the best magic I've ever experienced has actually been in rehearsals where lights come on and you hear something like you didn't imagine could be so beautiful. And it was. I think it's just so interesting because it is really knowing the music that opens up.
The ability then to think about having a gestural idea is what I want to say with my hands and then which frees you up to be very efficient. I think probably with your language, if we put that all into like a nice little bow.
Yeah, I think that when you talk about knowing, knowing the score, which enables your body to do your gesture there, that's absolutely true. The other thing it keeps us from doing hopefully is changing a lot. You know, you do it retard one time, you don't do it the next. You do it the third time. Nobody knows what you're going to do and it's nobody's comfortable then, you know, then, then so it's, I think it's, it's also important to be decisive and, and it's about like understanding that it's an interpretive art, what we're doing. We have to make decisions. It might not be the best decision, you know, or the, the, but it needs to be a decision. And if you're going to make a change, then OK, I mean, look, I'm going to be doing a world premiere in two weeks. Believe me, the first time through, I'm going to end up changing things all over the planet. But usually I'm, I'm very conscious about that. And I try to minimize that, you know, I, I, I try to minimize those changes. And then, you know, your language can be more specific. You know that with rehearsal, you also have to be careful you don't just like run things and people don't know why they're doing it or it doesn't get better. So, so it is important to make sure the, the, the rehearsal process is toward improvement. And it's not just, you know, time taking time. So if that means you have to talk a little bit more than go for it, but it's never at the expense of playing because it's just like a small child learning a language. You know, they do it by, you know, it's rapid for they're hearing their parents speak. They're you know, it's being in it that we learn so much from. So it's it's just a balance and I think experience gives us that. And I think also the better, as you were saying, David, you know about the knowledge of the score. What we teach when we're conducting sometimes, particularly with a young ensemble, is awareness, even with an advanced ensemble, awareness that your part is with this part, that your part is in conjunction with this part, all of that. That's rehearsal. Even with Chicago Symphony Orchestra, that's really what rehearsal is. But I think the better we know our music, the more it improves our own awareness and we can hear things that are actually happening, and then we know much better what we need to fix because we're not just sort of reading and surviving. So I do think that preparation piece is very helpful.
So then in the like flow of the rehearsal, there's are so many things that are competing for our attention as conductors, right? You just mentioned listening and, and I, I think this is such an important topic. So how do you approach listening in real time and how does that guide what you choose to address from the podium?
Oh goodness, isn't that the, the, the ongoing thing that we always try to get better at? You know, it's like you crystallize a vision of what you want and then you go in and you're hearing in real time. And then it's the process is making those match up. Now, it's not always making the ensemble match your vision. The ensemble may not be capable of your vision, and that's fine. You find the place where it's going to work best. You may have a player that is even in a professional ensemble that is not capable of playing at a certain tempo or something. So then you, you make decisions that make it work. So you have to, you have to have some flexibility and listening is the only way to do that. You know, a super brass tacks way that I, this is really getting into minutia, but I something that I've taken up doing more recently that I think has helped my rehearsal process a lot. I take little ends of a sticky note. So I'll take a note like this and I tear off a little corner and I set it on the score right above something that is a priority for me in that area. So it might be that I know I want a particular kind of articulation at this space and by putting that little sticky note right there, it reminds me of that. And then I know up here I have a priority with the woodwinds that the I, I know that it's, you know, they're marked for or my trombones are marked fortissimo. And I just know it's going to be too loud. You know, the, the way that it's. So I'm already I'm not, these are not specifically things I'm going to stop for, but they are goal posts that remind me that in my study, I decided this is what makes this past passage click. It's getting this, this, this and this. Just a few things. And in this rehearsal, if I can make sure that those are happening, then it probably the piece is going to start to take shape. And then as I'm hearing it, as we're going, I'm thinking about rehearsing a period of time. It might be a section, it might be just a whatever, a part of a, a section. But I, I'm thinking, OK, how did that go? How did that go? And I'm sort of, that helps me remember. It helps me remember what I just heard and, and compare it to my priorities. And then that, that helps me when I stop, I find that I'm, I'm better at making my comments targeted. I'm not so sort of all over the place talking about this one little eighth note here and that little dot there and whatever. And then you get those 3 little things and it still sounds like mush, you know. So it's just one thing that helps me.
Yeah, I like the idea of using the sticky notes. I mean, I've put them on my, I've put full ones on there before, but I never thought about just putting a little tiny one at the top as a just a jog of my memory. I'm like, Oh yeah, I remember you thought about this. You had a plan for this. Because I do think when I study scores, like there was a passage I was studying yesterday where the composer has, there's like 4 different layers going on and in there it's pretty complex, which a lot of the wind composers do that these days. There's a lot of stuff that's jammed in there in trying to decide. It's like I've heard this piece many times. I've conducted it a few times in this section. I'm going like, I never hear clarity here, just kind of loud and people go by. I'm like, I really want to have clarity here. I want the listener to realize that this is the line that I want you to hear. But it's in six different voices that are spread, spread across the score. So I went through and numbered them and said, OK, that's Group One. Here's group 2, here's group 2. There's six groups total. It was all said and done like, OK, I have to somehow communicate this to the ensemble that there's a priority order between 1:00 and 6:00 and I'm going to tell you where you are. And then we're going to build this in such a way that as we hopefully when we put it together, this could fail. I don't know why I'm starting rehearsals next week. We'll see. But I want to at least try to give them the opportunity. And I, I was trying to figure out a way to how do I mark this honestly in the score? Because it's really complex. And I just basically put a big sticky note rope on there, like here's the order. But I can't keep that on there forever. So having little things to help throughout, I now I'm like, why don't I wish I could just buy like little squares that are sticky. Maybe, I guess maybe there are maybe there's stickers or something. I don't know.
Probably like we have a solution for that. Listening the sponsorship, we appreciate that.
That's right you know, you know, in a situation like that, first of all, six layers, Oh my goodness. You know, I think what I would be thinking about is who's playing in the sandbox together, you know, so like of those 6, is it this, this number one and four are, are there. And when I rehearsed it, I would be, I would put those two together and make sure they're sort of clued into each other. And then they're, they're, you know, sort of they're working well. And then you add another layer and then you say, you know, the first layer, my primary layer is going to be this. And I, you'd have to group them. My goodness, that's it. Was a lot of layers I. I want to know how that goes.
Yeah. It really was a challenge because then digging into it more was going to OK, within the each one of these layers, who's going to be the primary color? Like who, who do I want to hear go? I want this to be the resume color or do I want this to be euphonium color? And honestly, some of those I'm like, I don't, I'm not sure I'm going to know for certain until it's I'm hearing it live. I've made some choices about it, but I don't know, I may hear it and go, well, I really think I prefer the euphonium. Let's let's try both ways here. But it's it's just very interesting going through and just all the things that we have to do to understand a score and then to communicate that in a way during rehearsal that, you know, again, I can't show that with my hands. I actually do have to be efficient and saying OK we will have to speak we're going to have to talk about that one, but part of that was just studying on how do I kind of codify all this? So that's a great suggestion though, but putting which groups go in the same sandbox together and who's on the outside of sandbox looking in wishing they could play that same box.
So kind of thinking, you know, kind of about the idea of, you know, moments where I think we spend a lot of time on being accurate, at least in the educational world, trying to line things up and be in tune and all the things we do and not that there's that's wrong. It's we definitely need to do that, but there's that moment when music really connects. I think we talked about a little bit earlier. That's kind of the first thing that came up was this idea of magic. But I'm curious, what do you think helps create those kinds of experiences both for your performers and the audience? Because the accuracy, I mean, will it ever be perfect? Maybe I don't is that so? So talk to.
It's not an end. Yeah. You know, the, I think the, the most important thing is to know that all of the perfectness, all of the intonation and great articulation and ensemble is a means to an end. And the, the end is the music, you know, coming to life, coming off the page, really becoming an entity, something that is a mirror about our humanity. It's, it's a, it's a mirror about the life experience in some way. So we can't, we can't lose the why. We, we can never lose the why. The we can get, it's so easy because we're trying to rehearse well and we're trying to make ensemble sound good and to get too technical. And I do think that, you know, there are different ways to do it. There are some conductors that are talking about the why right away, and there are other conductors that start with the technical and kind of get it into place and then work toward the, you know, the musical later. And, and I've done it both ways. And I, you know, I don't think there's a better way when I, I do think giving players some sense of, of where they're headed, though. The, and, and knowing as particularly as you approach a concert performance that the way you talk to them, you, you have to make sure that they understand that they have to move beyond just playing it accurately. That, that the, for instance, maybe they're playing loud together in this one section, but they, if they don't understand, this is the moment, this is the big climax of this movement. This is where you let it loose. That's the kind of thing where they can be like, oh, OK, structurally, I may see Forte five times, you know, or Fortissimo five times. But this is the one we're aiming for where there's a certain level of intensity that we have to save for or, you know, you're building toward the end and there's a certain sort of sustain, there's a certain sort of pulse or whatever that is. They need to understand where it's going and that it is about telling a story of some kind, even if it's not programmatic. It's it's about engaging the listeners in something that is enthralling and really transports them.
Yeah. I do think that the way to do that is through technical precision as well, which I think is, you know why your ensemble sound the way they do, they're so good is because the goal is art through technical precision and everything that you just said. There was a time also, I remember this vividly. We were on campus and Simon Rattle was here with Berlin and, and he was up there and he stopped the group. He pulls out a metronome, turns it on and has them do it again. I still I slow clapped. Wow. Because I mean, artistry is the end game, but if there's not clarity, you can't truly achieve artistry, I don't think.
Yeah. You know, many of us in the band world take that way too far. I mean, way too far that it's so technically precise that there's not really any art or any life or any.
Yeah. Any yeah, you know, Bernstein talked about that in the opening of his Joy of Music. It's about just kind of two thoughts on conducting between Mendelson and Wagner and the idea of hearing a performance that's perfect but dry as dust and then one that's so overblown and it's on the verge of distortion somewhere. We do have to find the balance in there between where those are and it. I think it is kind of a constant search.
Yeah, it is. We want this, but we have this. Where do we mold? It has to be both.
Yeah. It has to be both yeah.
And you know, also, if we're working with students, if we're working with young musicians, then, you know, it's not just about the audience and, and you know, it's, it's so much about their experience and, and what we are teaching and practicing when we, we work on this craft and we are teaching the ability to listen literally to listen as a human being, It makes us better partners and family members and community members. It, you know, when we work in an ensemble, a band or an orchestra and we learn to yield and support somebody who has a solo and then take the spotlight when it's our turn, when we learn to, you know, hook in our 8th notes with those 16th notes over there. I mean, all of that we're really practicing community. We're, we're, we're practicing collaboration and cooperation in a way that I think really can radiate out into how we live and, and the kinds of societies that we create. And so, you know, when we think about the work we do and the culture we build, I think that this really needs to be at the root of it, the experience of, of being really being present with other people and making this incredibly beautiful thing happen that you can't come back 10 minutes later and see like this is the other thing that's so magical is that it's so ephemeral, right? You know, it's music. So it just like you have to be so present to like hear it and in that moment. And so your musicians are all you're, you're trying to teach them to bring 110% of their own presence to what they're doing. And I think that sometimes if we there is a thrill in getting something really accurate and precise, there is absolutely a thrill when everybody's In Sync. I mean, it's incredible. Then it like the heartbeat starts to happen together, but then you have to make sure it goes one step further and, and, and that there's, there's real flight to the intent of the music and, and then, then it's then it's the magic, you know.
It almost feels like we're talking about how to connect and engage, right? It's kind of absolutely.
I mean, this is what we do, right? Exactly. You know that's the community part too, that's such an important part.
And I was just thinking about we, the majority of our listeners are band teachers or they're preparing to be band teachers. And in the band world we have, we have a huge competitive element that I fear sometimes the feeling their magic is the feeling of a point score or the success of a trophy in not that's the entire feeling, but it leads. It kind of guides that like what the students are experiencing, their sense of success isn't how wonderful it felt to play these lines just so locked in that suddenly the music popped and then we all went, Oh, that's so incredible. That feeling versus the judges said we are first place, second place, whatever in it. It's a very interesting dichotomy, I think, because I, I don't, I think the competitive aspect has pushed wind ensembles and bands to be, to perform at very high levels. But is there an expense in there? And how do we understand? I'm just kind of speaking out loud, I guess now it's asking questions that are rhetorical, but how can we do both and how can our listeners do both because it is such an important aspect. The technical part, like John mentioned, is, I mean, we have to do it. We, we have to play clearly, we have to play cleanly, we have to play together. But how do we get them to make these connections through? And I think it we're going to the next level, which is, which is this community, if we were to approach it not from winning or whatever is just a byproduct of what we've built in this community. Like if we are successful on a in a performance that's being adjudicated, it's because of this community that we've built. And I'll take a step further that we're, we're belonging precedes risk. And now we have this sort of musical infusion that's everyone's feeling become kind of 1 Organism. I'm getting a bit thinner on myself, so I'll stop there. But I think there's we've kind of jumped, yeah.
Jump in, jump in. Jump yeah. So actually, Laura, does, I mean, I'm curious your thoughts about as someone who kind of leads an ensemble looking to build connection and engagement, do you have any advice for those people listening about how to approach a mindset that can create an immediate impact. A mindset that creates an immediate impact or an approach to.
Rehearsal or you know, anything in the process of connection and engagement which we've just been talking about right so. Because it's so important. And people listening may be going, how do I do that? You know, I mean, yeah, no, I get it. You know, I, I really think that maybe it's two things. It's that you rehearse in a way that teaches listening, that it teaches awareness and teaches that sort of community in sync. This and then I also think that when we go to conduct it, when we're, and I mean in rehearsal, that maybe not every single time you go through that passage, but you need to conduct in a way that is engaged, you know, that shows the intensity of the music in some way. Because I think if we, it's OK to pull back and just get a technical thing, but then I think we have to switch gears back and make sure that it's it, it has some fire in it or some breath in it or whatever it needs. And that we're approaching it that way. Because if we, if all we do in a whole rehearsal cycle is very, very technical work, you can't just turn that on in a, in a concert. I don't think so. I think it's for me, it's switching back and forth and I, I sort of feel like it's so funny. I don't, I'm getting all these weird metaphors as I'm having this conversation, but it's like it's because I know I need to go out in my garden. You're, you're sort of a gardener. You're, you're, you know, you're, you're when you start, you're, you're sort of, it's like a rose bush. I have a rose trellis and, and it's, you know, it's like folding origami or something making the whole thing work. It's, it's a nuisance, frankly, but it's, you know, what you're doing is something is growing. You're growing toward a performance and, and you're shaping and molding it and you're, you know, you're sort of pruning a little off here and a little off there and, and it's, but at the same time, I'm, you know, then we go for it. Even at the end of the rehearsal, we do this section in a way that is for real. It's at the real tempo and it's with the real kind of sound and singing that you, you know, you, you ask for. And you know, David, I when you were talking about competing now, this is something that is outside of my world. However, I would think that if you're, if you talk to your ensembles and you all can, this is more of a question I should ask you. Is there a way that you can even if they don't win the trophy or the medal that you can say to them, wow, like I was the, the way that you played just now was like a whole level that I've never heard from you before. Or I mean, if it's true, if it's, you know, you don't just say these things. But I think there is a way in which we can probably validate the accomplishment of a really wonderful performance even if it doesn't win, right, I think. Listeners, please listen. It's not a blanket indictment about competition. I don't want it to be that, but I think it is. That's just a good way of thinking about the prize is a byproduct. And so if you can validate the experience of that and I say validate it musically, that may be the point. Not just that we competed or that we, you know, accomplished XYZ, you know, visually or musically, etcetera, but really what, how did the music affect us? What, what was the growth we experienced? If we can make that an equal priority perhaps to how well we, we do in advancement. So it's just something to think about because it does cross my mind sometimes because in the band world, we different than the workshop world really, we, we really do have this. I would say it's like 50% of our lives is that we're competing in the other 50% amazing, something different.
And this is a bit controversial, but I'm just going to say it. I think if a judge is of quality, they'll be able to recognize the quality that's on stage. I, I truly believe that.
That's a very, that's a very interesting observation, John, and I'm, I think you are, you're probably right. You're probably right. I don't think about the judging community as much. And there's some really great, we've John and I've talked together for many years and we, we've taught in very highly competitive marching band activities and we've had judges that were stellar musicians. And then we've had some others that I've, you know, you go, I don't like so I can understand like if you're the, the feeling there. So you're not wrong, John.
Well, oh, please, Laura, please.
I was just going to say, I mean, the other thing is, you know, the judge is hearing your group in relation to this group in relation to this group. Whereas what you're experiencing is, oh my goodness, my ensemble has improved so much since our first rehearsal. Like you're hearing the whole trajectory and you're hearing really how well they've done, you know, in terms of that journey. And the judge doesn't have that kind of depth of experience. They just hear you that one performance. So I do think that it probably would be meaningful to validate, you know?
Yeah, but that's tough.
Well, that's, you just, I think you just hit kind of the nail on the head. The judge doesn't have the full story, but you do. You've lived that with your students. So that's the validation. If we can lean into the this experience we're building that creates validation because there is a growth there like there is certainly a pathway there that leads to whether you're successful at the contest, the trophy, whatever. They're much success if you can validate that for your students. I think so.
So can I ask the follow up, David? Before we go to the next question, because I was having a conversation today that actually, actually this is interesting, Laura, before we talked about the competitive part to that answer, we were talking about the conversation between a technique and art. I had a student today ask me, how do you show artistry when the score is so technically demanding? Like, let's say you're conducting the Rite of Spring. How do you take that, it is so technical and the players need a certain level of clarity, but how do you infuse artistry in such? By the way, he's my favorite composer.
Like I'm oh my goodness. How do you take that and make it sound the way you do?
Oh, oh my goodness, Rite of Spring. Can I just say like it's time for me to do that piece again? I've done it in many years. It's super important to always be thinking about giving the musicians what they need and if they need you to stand still and give them a beautiful huge 4 pattern, that is exactly what you should do. I mean, you know, it doesn't matter what they're leaping around and how it sounds in that moment. If that's what they need, then that's what you have to give them. So I, I think that, you know, in our effort to show the music, it is not, we have to make sure we don't fall into choreography. We are not dancers, we are not choreographers. We are conductors. In a piece like that, clarity is number 1 and rhythmic, having your own rhythmic pulse be as just taut and as clean as possible. And then I think making the piece really come to life as in the rehearsal. And it's it's in the getting certain articulations to come out. It's in it's in illuminating all those layers that you were talking about, David, in that the piece that you're working on right now. It's that kind of thing. It's the gestures, you know. Where do they land? Where do they launch, getting making sure that the gestures sound like a gesture. They don't just sound like notes. So sometimes it's it's teaching the orchestra to group a certain number of beats in a way that sounds like you are going up or coming down or something like that. But I think it's, I think it's really, it's really in the rehearsal. And then you can show some of it for sure. I mean, it's just in your body. You know, David, when you're talking about, you know, something so well, there's a way in which it'll come out. But sometimes I have to contain myself and make sure that my hands and my body are in the most complex places for the musicians. I have to be the most calm and clear. So that's an important sort of, you know, polar opposite sometimes that we have to do.
Yeah, I was reminded. We mentioned our conducting teacher earlier, Bill Wakefield, Doctor Wakefield, I remember in a lesson talking about what goes on in his mind and he said I have 3 tracks. I have a time track, a music track and a gesture track. The time track is, that's what you talked about a second ago. Like it's time has to be right. That's and it's at the top. Like he has the time has to be something that he can't waver on. The music track is who's playing when, what's important, but the gesture track, it's, the thing why I mention this is the gesture track, he said for him is usually pretty flat until there's something that in the two top ones are really, really important. So the gestures that he gives they're they're almost always like he'll give a gesture and it's so meaningful because he's cleared out the space for the gesture. Like he'll do some gesture. It'll be like, I mean it literally like our minds go, but you didn't see that coming because he's not conducting real big and all of a sudden has a big gesture like he clears the space. Something about just literally for the Stravinsky, like almost everything I've conducted, it's like it's clarity. Like it's usually pretty small until the point that it's not. And then it goes back to the kind of the small.
So interesting. And just another teacher thing. My teacher, my doctorate, something he told us still sticks with me. At some point you do have to trust the players and maybe that's the starting point because we sometimes get, yes, we better get the technical stuff right, but sometimes we have to allow them like just trust them. They're going to, they're going to do it.
Yeah, I think it's trust them in a couple of different ways, you know, sometimes it's not that they need us to subdivide every little thing or show every little thing. Sometimes you just create the framework and trust that they're going to get it, you know, and then it's also trusting them in the moment they can feel if you don't, you know, they can they, it makes them nervous if they if they feel like there's an underpinning of trust, you know, they will most certainly do better. And, you know, it's, it's absolutely true what you said about movement, about like your own physical movement. My mentor of many years, Robert Spano, who is so still with us and I just love and adore him. He's a hero of mine. You know, I used to watch him rehearse the Atlanta Symphony when I was his assistant. And he, he would be moving all over the podium with his feet, you know, just like moving all over the place. And then we would get to the dress rehearsal. It was like shugunk, you know, he was like, still. And he would move his feet sometimes just for a structural thing. Like here we are now at the climax of the development, you know, or something like that. And his foot would move. And there was a way in which he would distill everything down so that then the smallest movement was suddenly meaningful, right? And it was, yeah, it was it. I learned so much from that. It's really great. If you're leaping off the podium, you know, in the first 5 minutes of a piece, you have nowhere to go and your gestures, you're just flapping in the wind basically. So it is important to gauge our enthusiasm that way.
Yeah, this has been such a great conversation. I'm I'm energized by just having, having this conversation. I, I'm curious as you look ahead, as we kind of all look at what excites you about the future of ensemble leadership and, and the way we kind of shape musical experiences just holistically.
Oh my goodness, you know. It's such a, it's such a privilege to do what we do. It's such a miracle the to, to go into that experience with other people and, and create beautiful music. And, and it's, it's an experience that I think probably all of us could say it's not like anything else. Like there's nothing else in the life experience that's, that's like making music and, and, and doing a concert when it's going really well and everybody because you're outside yourself, you're doing something larger than yourself. And there's a way in which the music gets flowing through you and through the ensemble and through the audience in a way that really binds all of us. And I think that for me, you know, I feel like that the act, what we do by making music is more important now than it's ever been ever, ever, ever been. That this, this act of building positive communities is, is crucial. And so in teaching each other to listen and tolerate and, and appreciate and respect. And you do all those things when you play a work by Stravinsky or by Mozart or by, you know, by anyone. So I think that it's about teaching and remembering our shared humanity. It's, it's about remembering that the preciousness of, of the human spirit and, and celebrating that as a group. And so I'm, I'm hopeful and optimistic and, and thrilled with every opportunity I have to keep doing what I do.
I absolutely love that. So, Laura, this has been such a fantastic conversation. So now's the time where we ask all of our guests a couple standing questions.
OK. OK.
I'll go first. So do you have a soapbox topic? And it can be about anything, about music, about life, about anything that you want to share with the listeners.
A soapbox topic. Here's a soapbox topic. When one is learning to conduct you do a lot of observing. The number of years I spent sitting and watching other people conduct and what I find is so common is that people don't make use of that experience like because what is so easy to do is see what is not working optimally with what whoever is up there, whether it's your colleague, your, you know, somebody who's studying with you or whatever. And so you're just like, oh my God, that's, you know, I don't want to do that, whatever. But I think that if we listen in an active way that is asking questions all the time, what are they doing well? What is going well? What about this sound is working for this piece? What about their gestures is creating, you know, a certain kind of sound? And, and, and I think that if we approach it with our ears and our eyes open and approach it of what is working, right, what about the rehearsal technique? How much are they talking? Is the orchestra getting more engaged as the rehearsal is going or less engaged? It's the asking those questions. We make the most of that time. And then we realize it's not just about being tortured while you're, you know, sitting there waiting for your turn to conduct. It's about then you're really growing. You're really growing. You're growing your ears and your ability to get inside a piece of music in a way that helps so much when you're up there. So that's off the top of my head.
That's a good one. That's a good one. Mine's easier. Is there a particular book or books that have inspired you in your journey?
Oh my goodness, oh my goodness. Oh my goodness, oh my goodness. The OK, the one that's coming to me right now, I read like 30 years ago and it's everybody reads this, you know, the inner game of tennis and that at the time I, I was a violinist, I was a professional violinist for many years and, and was sort of conducting on the side. And, and then I, I had this sort of crisis of figuring out where I was going next. And some of that was through physical injury and, and tendonitis and issues that were, you know, kind of halting my playing. So I, I learned from that book that there is a, a kind of focus, a kind of place that is between working incredibly hard and trusting. Trusting yourself, trusting your body, trusting your own ability. And I learned how to flow, to allow, to let rather than force by hard work and will and drive. And I did that at the same time. I read that at the same time I was practicing a lot of Tai chi and Tai chi really has informed the way that I move on the podium, the way that I approach music making with an ensemble. It's the way I ground myself, the way I feel and experience the music is from the sort of hollowness that you gain from practicing Tai chi and the way you let and allow. And it was those two things together that I really think has been enormously formative and that I still use today, though I do not practice Tai chi for two hours a day like I used to. I will sometimes do Qigong backstage before I go on if, especially if I'm really nervous.
Yeah. Absolutely. OK, so I have the ultimate question. And probably the most important that we've talked about today. OK, so what's your favorite time signature?
Favorite time signature? 7/4.
Wow, 7/4. That's the first time, in four, I don't think we've had a 7/4 before. Why? Why 7/4? Why so?
No, you know what I should be saying is 5/4 followed by 3/4 because I'm doing On the Waterfront, Bernstein.
Oh yeah. So that sounds like Bernstein just thinking about it.
Candy, don't, don't, don't. Yeah, bets. There you go.
OK, interesting. Well, Laura. I hate to say this, but the correct answer was common time.
It's been awesome. I should have seen that coming.
So it's been such a, the first, you are the first 7/4, I mean, you're, it's you're, yeah. You're the first, Laura.
It's been such a great conversation. Thanks so much for joining us today and sharing so many insights and challenging all of us. We really appreciate your time today.
Oh my goodness, it's been absolutely inspiring to talk to the two of you, and I'm honored by the opportunity. So thank you so much.
And that's a wrap on today's episode. Thanks for spending part of your day with us on the Common Time Podcast. If today's conversation gave you something to think about or something to try with your students, we'd love for you to share this episode with a colleague and you can also follow us on social media for episode clips, behind the scenes content and updates to our upcoming guests. And if you haven't already, please be sure to subscribe so that you never miss an episode. Until next time, keep making music and keep making a difference.