Welcome to the Common Time Podcast, a show designed to give music educators practical, inspiring ideas for you and your program. Each week we sit down with world class educators, composers, and conductors to talk about teaching, leadership and building programs that thrive without burning yourself out. So whether you're a band, orchestra, or choir director, our goal is simple to help you grow and stay inspired and remember why you fell in love with teaching music in the first place. This is season 4, and we're diving even deeper. More real conversations, more actionable takeaways, and more voices shaping the future of music education. Let's get into the episode. Our guest today is Jamie Weaver. Welcome to Jamie.
Hey, David. Hey, John.
We're so glad to have you today, Jamie. So Jamie is retired after spending 30 years in the classroom. But he didn't stop there. He now heads up the nonprofit front and center leadership. But today we're going to talk with him about beginner band. His like he's the guru of it. So we're reaching out to the best to share his expertise. John, get us started.
Thanks, David. Hi, Jamie. Good to see you my friend.
Good to see you man.
So for anybody listening, Jamie Weaver during the introduction, David was saying that he is a beginning band whisperer. And I cannot emphasize this strongly enough. When we were teaching together in Louisville ISD back in the day, you would start 200 beginners. And it isn't because they were forced to be in band, it was just because you were that excellent at it. And you know, I mean, so we have quite a few things today that I think are going to be helpful for our constituency listening across the world. So I'm just going to begin by asking. So when it comes to beginning band and specifically recruiting, how do you start? You know, so like, what do you focus on to spark the student excitement that is going to set families up for success right at the beginning?
That's a tough one. You like I used, I spent the first part of my career thinking that the event, and I think we'll probably talk about that in detail later on, but that the event of recruiting the dog and pony show that everybody has that was more important than it really was right. In 180 school days, if you get the kids to come visit the program one day, that's only one 180th of what's going on, right. The other 179 days is actually what makes or breaks what's going on in that classroom. You know, I've heard stories of having that dog and pony show and all the 5th graders for us, where they were fifth grade coming to us in 6th grade, they were starting, they would come and do their tour and they'd spend some time in band. They spend some time in orchestra, they spend some time in choir. And by the time they got to the orchestra room and, you know, they'd watch the show go on and the teacher would start turn around talking about being an orchestra. And the kids were behind the teacher going, don't do that, don't do that. And the reason is that they didn't like that teacher because the teacher was not very nice to him, right? So a lot of the approach really wasn't about what we were going to do in that moment, that one little one day moment, but making sure that we were a place where kids can come and feel good and feel supportive and feel positive that we were actually nice to kids, right? That to me, that's the thing. I literally just walked out of another meeting where, you know, I'm on a nonprofit board that deals with youth bands in Colorado. And one of the big things that we talked about was what parents expect from an experience. Parents expect the kids to be happy, right? That goes a long way in the recruiting process. And that doesn't mean that you have to always lie. Tell them that they sound great, but at some point they need to feel good about the choice that they made, right? Make the juice worth the squeeze that they're doing, the time, effort, energy, money, all of those things that are involved. And so, you know, if you had to boil it down to where did we start? We started by making sure that our classroom and that our experience was one that kids were proud of. The parents were proud of because the kids came home and they were happy about being in that program.
Yeah, you hit on a couple of different things there. Parents, presentation with the kids. There's several factors I'm sure certain that go into this process. It's not a singular spark, I suppose. So I want to dig into that a bit and maybe this, I'm not sure phrasing this is correct, but I'm curious what matters most in recruiting or if there should be a relative scale. But between the presentation to the students which you mentioned, the buy in from a parent that's important, but also including relationship with elementary teachers and those kinds of things. Is there a balance there? How do you, what is your impression of all three of those because it seems like it is kind of an all inclusive, but you know what matters the most when we're recruiting?
Well, the answer is yes. Yeah, right. Like which matters the most? Is it the presentation? Is it the parents? Is it the relationship with the elementary teachers? Yes to all of the above, right. Now, you know, one of the big common mistakes. Let's start with the elementary teachers. If the only time that you ever have a conversation with the elementary music teacher is about going and getting their kids into your program, there's a problem, right? Because if we live in the performing arts world, it's such a different animal than any other school or any other class that's in school, right? Because we truly have the opportunity to see a student, let's say band directors specific. Let's say me specifically, had an opportunity to get to know 5th graders and watch them progress all the way to the time they graduated. And in some cases, they would graduate high school, go to college, be in programs there, become band directors, orchestra directors, whatever. We have a unique opportunity to see them through the entire conduit of that music education experience. If the only time we're ever speaking to the elementary music teachers is surrounded by that event, we've missed the chance there, right? So, you know, yes, that was very important. The performance and the dog and pony show, yes, important. But it's also very important for us to remember, you know, kids that are in fifth grade, 4th grade, 6th grade, whenever we're starting them, they do not have the accessibility to get them to where they need to be or to get the instrument that they need, right? So the parent becomes a very important aspect of that. Like if I'm going to pay for this instrument, if I am going to, and not necessarily the beginner year, but as I get older and they're still showing up for sectionals, they're showing up for concerts, they're showing up for these things. These kids are not providing their own transportation, right? So, you know, this could sound like name dropping. It's not, other than to say some of us that are watching this perhaps were there. Scott Lang and I did an entire session at Midwest in December about recruiting and retention. One of the things that we did talk about, one of the five rules we had, was fight fire with fire. Getting the people who know to talk to the people who want to know. Kids who recruit kids, parents talk to parents. We talked to the teachers, right? Because me trying to relate to a kid is not as easy as a kid that relates to a kid. Me relating to a parent is not as easy as getting a parent to relate to a parent, right? So when you're talking about like 3 different avenues, what's important? Is it the elementary teacher? Well, that's my job. I have to create that relationship. I have to maintain that relationship through a course of time that's not just isolated. Parents that have the opportunity to talk to other parents, whether it be at meetings or even open lines of communication. Hey, if you want to know anything, this is Whitney. Her kids are in the band. Here's her email. She can answer those questions. Because I think sometimes too, we as music educators, we come across as used car salesman, right? Like I'm going to say anything I can to get you in the program, even if it means I lie to you about the quality of the car that you're about to drive. And parents won't really lie to each other. Kids won't lie to each other. It's back to that orchestra thing. Like, kids will not lie to each other, right? So yeah.
That's a really good point. And that isn't just beginner band. I just reflect, like all of a sudden this sparked in my mind. I never taught middle school. I went down to the middle school from the high school and I would teach beginner classes. But the recruiting part, other than showing up for the dog and pony show, I wasn't involved at all in recruiting. My first real activity in recruiting was when I got to the University of Kansas and I didn't really have a lot of help and I didn't know what to do with this. I just created a student committee and I had them shoot videos interviewing each other about their band experience. And then they had another kid that was in like graphic design. He created a whole mock up and then they created videos and I would take two of them to different schools throughout that recruiting season and I would introduce myself. I'm the director of the Marching Jayhawks. And here's two of my students. They played the video that they produced. I wasn't in any of it. I was never shown in the video and I didn't answer any questions. And then I'd go, thanks everyone. Here's a postcard that has some information and it goes to a website on how to do some stuff. But I never did any of that because I know like I don't relate to these kids, I'm not a kid. I haven't been a kid for a long time, but to find a way to get them to connect to each other, I never really thought about that at a 4th, 5th, 6th grade level.
Oh, absolutely. And we would sit in meetings and you know, towards the end of the career when I was doing more high school stuff, it's kind of the same thing. You're just dealing with bigger kids, more accessibility with their own. But like, I would have parents raise their hand, how does my kid do band and AP and tennis and all these things and I literally would stop and I go, I don't know. I don't know because I don't do that. However, here's Max and Max does all those things and let Max talk to how he did it. Or, you know, parents that would say, I've heard that I'm never going to see my kids during the fall because they're so busy. And I go, I don't know, because I'm here with them. Here's Max's mom. And so Max's mom talked about it and I'll never forget. She looked at me and she goes, yeah, it's true. They're going to be gone a lot. But once they get to high school, you're going to be glad they're gone a lot. They are so annoying, right?
Yeah. It was the greatest. You think it is?
Oh, absolutely. Instant buy in. Instant buy in. At one point too, it's funny you mentioned because like kids connecting to kids, right? They told a story in Chicago about we had a student at my last school and I had put something on Instagram, right, which apparently that's really against the rules if you're over 30, to try to be cool on Instagram. And so I put something out there and she comes walking in, she's got her phone. She puts it in my face. She goes, did you just post this? I went, yeah. She goes, no, she goes, here's what you're going to do. You're going to give me the login to our Instagram and I'm going to make it look so much better. And she did, right, because she knew what would talk to kids. We've all been in that and I was guilty of it. John knows this because we were there in that same district. We would put out the greatest looking materials. Oh, you know, we'd have this very exciting picture in there and go, did you know that Walter Payton also played drums? And my last year teaching middle school, I had a kid raise a hand and go, who's Walter Payton? Right. If there's not a connection point to relevancy to them, it doesn't matter to them. And the older that we get, the longer that we do what we've done, the fact that we're motivated by different stuff. Like I've never met a fifth grader that gets very excited about John Mackey, right? I've never known a fifth grader that gets excited about Holst. I just haven't. But like, the longer that we do this, the more disconnected from them we get, the harder it is for us to understand what's relevant to them.
You know, it's interesting on the college side of this. I mean, this is something we deal with every day. And so at Michigan I created a position on our team that oversees all of our external relations and social media. I mean, we have fundamentally changed our recruiting strategy. I don't actively go to schools anymore because it's almost a waste of time because one, it's so hard to get into Michigan, but two, there are more effective ways. And so, I mean, we've created Minecraft games around Revelli Hall where he's actually in the game. And just to teach them the history of the program while also giving them a, I don't know what this is. They were telling me we're going to do this. I'm like, we're going to do what now? You know, and all the Instagram things and all the social media things. And it is fascinating. But I do want to bring up a point though, before I ask a question specifically about the actual dog and pony show, because that is important. I remember when we would bring the band to the middle school when I was teaching middle school because I actually never taught high school. I taught middle school at Griffin Middle School and I've taught at Michigan and those are the only jobs I've had. But being really good is a really important part. And everything about that, walking in a codified way, sitting down in a unified manner, being professional in a way. You know, there is something about that is really impressive to watch. Then the sounds that are coming out, now you have to choose what you're going to play for them really intelligently, right? Really wisely, but it needs to sound great, it needs to look great, it needs to be well rehearsed. Even the kind of funny moments, the kind of stupid moments, I mean, we would choreograph all kinds of things, right, just to get people to laugh, you know, because if they are laughing, they're having fun, right. So anyway, so about this, let's talk about the specifics of the beginning band demonstration. So what does this actually look like in real life for the listeners that are trying to fine tune this or even start one? I mean how do you, do you have any advice on this, like things that are must haves and what do people overthink? All the things.
Or the laundry list, right. The laundry list of mistakes I made over the years, right. Yeah. And it really depends on which year you asked me this question, right? And I could go back in time and I literally can look at it and go, you know, there was the one year that we picked selections from Harry Potter. And then we got all the kids that really like to read. And they were super intelligent, right? And they were focused. They were in on it. And then the next year for fun, like we played the theme from SpongeBob. So we got all the cartoon watching ADD kids that, you know, like what we used to attract them is usually who we attracted. There was one year that we thought it would be really cool to just have an event that was more like a pep band. Like they came walking in and we were guns blazing and drums going until I saw a bunch of kids doing this and they thought that's what band was going to be every day. And so our numbers went down. We use the top band at some point, yes, they have to play really well, right? Let's go back to this thing we did at Midwest. And we talked about the choices that we make as humans often center around some type of fear. And when I look at 5th graders, 4th or whatever, whenever they're starting their journey, the vast majority of kids who don't do it are afraid. They're scared that they don't have time, they're scared they don't have money, they're scared that they don't have the talent to be able to succeed. Right. So if we were putting in, and this actually, let's go back way back in time in like early 2000s, and Mark Whitlock was at Hebron at the time and Mark brought the high school band to sit side by side with all those kids at Creek Valley. And then he was like, OK, well, now we're going to play something we're doing for a concert and started, and I forget what it was that they played, but when they left, I remember kids looking at me going, I could never play like that. It did more damage than it did help because the kids looked at it and they were immediately scared that they didn't have the talent to be able to go to that next level. So it took a whole lot of talking them out of that and unwinding what they believed. So yes, I used to use my top middle school band in that moment to recruit and play and stuff like that. And then I realized as a fifth grader, if you're already scared that you don't have the talent and then you see somebody able to do that. And then I started using 6th graders and we would audition the 6th graders. But what we started noticing was really cool was that the level that they were able to show by they, I mean the current 6th graders to say, hey, one year ago they were sitting right where you are. Like you don't have to know. You don't have to be like, we will teach you from square one. This is what they've done. And then for kids to sit down because when they were in 4th grade, they remember those kids walking through the hallway, right? They have people that they looked at and they idolize. And so you can stop and play a concert and go, OK, let's just write. Hey, Devin, Devin trumpet play would stand up and just talk to people. Back to your experience. And not only was Devin like this unattainable 8th grade, you know, future Allstate level. It was the kid that they just had lunch with last year. And so it's back to that relevancy and being able to connect to them. That was the thing. So, yeah, man, we went through a million different iterations of that, quote unquote, dog and pony show where I landed. By the time I left that middle school to go to high school, we had been doing 6th grade. We had been not worried about the music that they were playing, but you'd rather playing stuff that the 6th graders were working on anyway so that it sounded good, you know? And also from a demographic standpoint, making sure that whatever we selected to be in that band kind of represented who was in the band. It represented instrumentation, right? I didn't want there to be like 5 million tubas and like 2 flutes because then everybody, you know, they make decisions based on what they see. I wanted to balance boy versus girl. I wanted to balance all of those things so that if I'm a fifth grade kid and I sit down, I can see myself literally sitting in that chair doing what they're doing.
I think that's a great point, the idea of connecting with someone that they literally still know. Like they're not just immediately disconnected from the person because they went to the next school. That's fantastic. I want to skip forward a little bit. We kind of talked about the demo, but even in that moment you're there, there's going to be families that are there. How do you communicate with those? Like, well, if they've never had a background of music or very little background in music, but to share with them the value of band because their parents are very involved, maybe more involved now than ever. Right. How do you, how do you, you know, thread that needle?
Well, it's important for all of us to remember 92% of kids who are in high school music organizations do not major in music. They do not continue on, right? There's only 8%. And Scott and I joked about this in Chicago, I said, do you know what they call the other 92%? Future patrons. Those are the people that show up to concerts because, right, like those are the things like we, we've got to stop pretending that what we're doing is creating a pathway to music teachers. We are, right, but we're creating a bigger pathway to music patrons. The vast majority, 92% of my kids when I was in Frisco, right? It was probably even more than that. So I'll give you 2 extreme levels here, right? I've got the four year Allstate clarinet kid who never played again when she graduated high school, but she went to Saint Louis for school. She's now a doctor. Then we had the two year Allstate tuba player who is the tuba player in the LA Phil. Hermano, right? That's 2 completely different experiences. For him, it's like, man, I know you're going to major in music, you're going to do these things. But for her, you're great at music, you're not going to major in it. We've got to figure out why that's important to you number one, but also to your parents number two. So a couple years back, we started thinking about that. I sent out an e-mail to kids like Stacey who had graduated, and Sam, those ones who were no longer with the program but also weren't doing music. And I said, what is it that you learned being in this program that has helped you in your non-band, non-music world? And they sent back big emails and we put them on our website. Like if you went to libertyhsband.com/sam, you would see Doctor Sam Long who talked about as a percussionist, here are the things that I took to medical school. Number one, when I was in the class about irregular heartbeat, he goes, I was faster than anybody else because I could tell when something wasn't right. Number two, he goes when I was in my residency, he goes, my supervisor told me that they would rather have musicians in medical school because they can take feedback without melting down. That's true, right? And so we put that out in front of parents. Like I was very honest with parents to say, listen, we are not here so that your child can go and major in music. We are here because of all these other things, right? Jeremy Earnhardt, who was with Music for All, right, he did some studies that are out there that everybody should find, that talks about when he was on Arlington about music as a pathway to workforce, which is a big thing now. Future ready and workforce stuff is all tied up into performing arts. We just haven't figured out a way to say that loud enough to everybody. So, yeah, when parents are sitting there and they go, well, you know, I don't want my kid growing up to be a band director. I go, I get that. I get that. Right. Like, I totally understand that this isn't about creating music education majors. If that's what they choose, that's great. But here are all those things. Oh, you don't believe me? Let's show you the website where Stacey, the doctor, said this is what I learned from doing clarinet all these years that has helped me with the resilience and being in the medical field.
That's great. It is. When you think about 92%, I mean, it's a sizable number, but I mean, I didn't realize until you said it — 92%, you know, I mean. The interesting thing there is focusing on that. I've been moving into arts administration and can't really talk about it here necessarily because of things in the background that are moving right now. But one of the conversations that I had to dig into pretty significantly is about patronage and where, how are we funding the things that we want to fund? Because in the orchestral world, you have earned revenue, you have contributed revenue. The orchestral world revolves around contributed revenue. You can sell out every concert and you're not going to be able to fund your program. That's interesting to me. Like I had a conversation not long ago talking about patronage. The lineage to patronage starts in elementary. If you think about it from the 10,000 foot viewpoint of like we're trying to engage individual students in the love of music. Yeah, they have the program that goes through, they're going to learn a lot of skills, but those skills end up transferring into — I didn't know it was 92%, but 92%. So 92 out of 100 kids are future patrons for this orchestra or this nonprofit arts. Like man, that's a powerful number to really think about. It is what our responsibility. Music education isn't just about support for your program. We've got to fight for that too, but there's a much larger role that music education really plays if we kind of lean into it and how valuable that is. I've never discussed that with a parent, but I sure would now.
You know, it's interesting because how do you really teach people to patron something? They have to love it. They aren't going to patron it if they just like, no, OK, it's not valuable to them. So it's all about the experience. It's about the student experience. It's kind of what we're all talking about, right? We're just how to curate the student experience in such a very careful, calculated and intentional way in a positive way. For sure. You know, so this brings up a question in my mind about common mistakes. So from your experience and expertise, do you have any advice to our listeners about some common mistakes that you see people make and then how to avoid them?
Tons. How long is the podcast?
It's supposed to be 5 days. Six days, just non-stop. We'll go at it.
Yeah, it's a marathon. Yeah, yeah. Because some of those mistakes were personal. Like right when I said we did the pep rally and everybody plugged their ears and they did not like that. I have seen and heard places where let's say the orchestra just basically does a rock concert. They plug in electric guitars. They plug in electric violins. A lot of kids, oh man, like smoke machines and all that stuff, and the kids walk in and go, oh man, this is really cool. This is what I'm going to be a part of, until they show up and find out that's not actually what's going on, right? So like there are tons of those types of mistakes. If I had to look at like a college graduate in their first year and they said, how do I do this? I'd say whatever you do, do not put out in front of them something that you do not have. I mean, that's business one-on-one. I am not going to advertise something that I don't actually have at the store because I'm going to have a whole bunch of very angry customers. So like, I see that mistake. I see the mistake of literally being — go back to what we talked about with elementary school teachers — where the relationship is transactional. This is the only time I've ever talked to you. I don't even know your name. But now I want a list of the kids so I can go after them. There's nothing, I don't think there's anything more insulting than a transaction when it comes to education where we're just using each other for data, but we're not trying to help each other out. Like David even touched on this. He goes, you know, I never taught middle school, but I went to the middle schools and taught beginners, right? That is not transactional. That's investing. And so like investing in the programs below you, that's a mistake that we make though, right? That we don't even know. I'm in Colorado now and this is going to sound like, how do you say this without sounding negative? But the amount of conversations that don't happen from level to level where I'll say to a high school director, like, when's the last time you talked to so-and-so? And they go, I didn't even know they were their director. Like how in the world, right? If you have children of your own, when you send them somewhere for daycare, whatever it is, it's usually somebody that you have vetted, you know, you trust. So you're going to ask this person to send their kids. And we all know how attached we get to our kids. We want the best for them. We care about them. You're not going to send them off to a stranger, right? And so I don't think that the responsibility lies with, it's not the responsibility of the elementary school teacher to reach out to me as a middle school person and make that happen. It's my responsibility to make that happen. It's not the responsibility of the middle school director to reach out to the high school. It's really the responsibility of the high school director to make that relationship. Right. So yeah, like there are tons of mistakes. Those are a few of them that I've seen, that I've done myself. And if I can go back in time, like, you know, I probably would have still done better about making those relationships.
Well, I get a cheat with this, right. And this is where John's like, man, how'd you have so many kids at Creek Valley? Well, we had three elementary school feeders. And across the street from us was Lynn Cyber, whose sons were both in my band program. So she was a band mom. And then down the street was Pulsar Elementary, and Nikki Allen was the music teacher there. She taught flute lessons for us, right. So like there was already this built-in thing. When I say the third one, the third elementary that opened up the street at Coyote Ridge was Steve Seibert, and Steve Seibert's kids were in the band, right? So there was already a relationship established there that just made it better and easier. And all three of those elementary school teachers who could see what was going on a regular basis in the room, who could then vouch for — if you do this program — could vouch for kids and parents. If you do this program, you're going to be taken care of. You're going to be, you know, it's going to be a positive experience. And then just one more thing, because John mentioned it too. You both said something about intention, right? None of this stuff happens accidentally. It's not passive, right? So anyway.
Yeah, no, that's incredible information. And we are right, we all make the mistakes and we learn from them, which is one reason this podcast is — we're putting it out there in some ways to help obviously uplift the people that are doing the job day in and day out, but also to shed a spotlight on sometimes like, we had this experience, it didn't go like we thought it was going to go. It's good for us to talk about it. I do want to shift — let's imagine we have them and we're setting up the first, you know, the first week to three weeks perhaps. So how do we build, like in that first part, it's so important — the first time we have them in our classrooms — how do we build the momentum and confidence in a way that's going to lead to retention? Because it's ultimately we're wanting to keep them. So how do we do that immediately and quickly?
Let's go back to that last little phrase about intent versus accident, right? And it took me forever to figure out — boy, this is going to sound super nerdy — I had to figure out a way that I knew exactly what was going on every day. Some people are very naturally gifted at this, right? Let's take a David Dunham that was at Fowler Middle School. That man's world was a mess. His desk was a mess. But by golly, he knew this is this day, this is what I teach, this is what's going on. I couldn't do that. I was more like Bill Murray's Groundhog Day where I'd walk into a class after finishing like the million other to-do list things and the emails and stuff. I go, oh my gosh, I haven't even thought about this class, this rehearsal. Well, let's just do what we did yesterday. And after you do that five times in a row, you go, this is embarrassing. Like we're still playing the same line out of the book, doing the same thing because I forgot to sit down and intentionally think about it, plan it out and know what I was doing. So towards the end of the middle school teaching career, I started the Weaver Decimal system right where it was like, let's say 1.1.1 literally meant to me first report card, first week, Monday. Because while that date would move — like we might start school on August 20th, we might start it on August 8th — it didn't matter. But 1.1 was always the first report card the first week as a Monday. Like the 3.2.6, that was the third report card, second week of that report card, Saturday, Solo and Ensemble, right? Like everything was that way. And so then I was able to sort that stuff out in my files. I always knew exactly what was coming up the next day. Kids do not want — they're smart — they do not want to feel like you've wasted their time, right? And there's two ways that we waste time. Number one, by not being planned and thoughtful about what it is that we're going to teach them. So we keep coming at them like Groundhog Day and doing the same stuff every day, which also causes us to move a little slow. The second way that we waste our time is we move so fast that they have no clue what's going on. And then they know — kids are smart enough to know when they play that the quality is not good, right? And they give up. Which is ironic because, and we talked about this in Chicago a little bit, it's ironic because the folks in sports have figured it out. When you put your kid in youth level sports, you don't expect them to play the Super Bowl in four months, right? For some reason in music, kids feel like if they're not the best that they can be in four months, or let's say at the end of that beginner year, then they go, well, I suck at this, I quit, right? So we've done ourselves a little bit of disservice because we find ourselves a lot of times not in the sweet spot of that. We either move too slow because we forget to plan and be methodical about what it is that we've got coming up, or we move too fast. And then they feel like they're not successful in anything and then they quit and they give up. But yeah, like, I was so notorious about the first part, moving so super slow, being so methodical, the kids thought it was boring, you know? But at the end of the year, and like any of the kids would tell you, there were always certain moments. End of 6th grade was one. End of 8th grade was another. End of senior year was one. But I always look at them, we'd get to about March or April and I go, hey, raise your hand if this is boring to you. And they'd raise their hand and go, oh, thank God. And they go, what? I go, right? Like this should start to get boring to you. Beginner band should start to get boring to you about April because you're ready for the next part. 8th grade band should get boring to an eighth grader in April because they're ready for the next thing, right? And so we would combat that idea of being bored with it because it's so simple, or bored with it because, you know, like whatever it was, we would just be dead honest with them. And to me that always played out better than trying to car-salesman them into thinking it's the greatest thing that's ever happened in their life. Like no, this is awful.
As I'm hearing, you know, hearing this, I mean, you're so impassioned about it, but I hope that the listeners are taking away that the message is just you have to be genuine. You are a very genuine person. Like, you know, what you see is what you get. And that is really important because the kids had you said are smart. They're going to see through everything. No matter what you think you're doing, the students are going to see through it. Right. Was that old adage like they don't care about what you know until they know you care, but they also can figure out if you're making it up? True. Like if you're acting like you care but you really don't care, they know immediately.
Yeah, well, I'm beyond care. Like at some point you can care a lot and still not get the job done. And you mentioned that you had a system, like you had to find a way. You created a system for literally keeping yourself in track. And I was reminded Teresa's rereading, my wife producer is rereading Atomic Habits by James Clear. And I've read it some years ago. But one of the things she reminded me of this week was that you do not fall. No, you do not rise to the level of your goals. You fall to the level of your systems and you can have all the best intentions, but until you create systems to replicate that information, I think, I think you did it. And some of us, I'm not I, I'll be like the crazy. I'm I'm the person like my desktop, not my literal desktop, but like my computer desktop is. Stresses me out. Stresses John out like he can't look at it.
Yeah, like he has this, like everything is in its place.
And I have to be more intentional about that. If I, I remember like my first collegian job, like, OK, I need to be John now. And I created folders for every little thing on my desktop. And so when I had a file, rather than save the desktop, no, no, no. Which file folder does that need to go into? Which is pretty crazy because now I can go back on Google Drive and look at University of Kansas 2007. And I, it opens up in all these folders that have all the things that I did. And I think it's the only reason I got through that job. I didn't know how to do the job when I got there. It was new to me and you know, I'm director of athletic bands, never having held that position before. I was skilled enough to do the job, but all of the things were happening, like being organized and having systems in place. I think it's, I don't know, I'm kind of getting up on a little bit of a soapbox now, but I think you just hit that at the beginning because I know there's a lot of stress on directors that the place on themselves to be successful to make certain their students are achieving XYZ things. And I just asked the question like, how do we get in the first two or three weeks our students, you know, create confidence from the create momentum. And one of the things you went to was what are you doing to help yourself be organized to even create a situation like that? You know, that's having the goal without the system, so that's why the James Clear thing popped in my head. But in any case.
But, but, well, you know, there's no digression because like, when you think about it too, the thing that makes us all feel more comfortable in whatever the situation is, is familiarity, right? What predictability? Predictability starts to breed familiarity. Or, sorry, familiarity breeds predictability, which breeds trust. So if the relationship that we have in a classroom is built on trust, like you can fail and you're going to be fine. Like all of those inter workings. But if I walk into as a kid into a classroom that doesn't feel planned and thought out, if I walk into a classroom in the fields disarrayed and I'm in front of a frantic teacher, Oh my God, I don't know what's going on. I start to feel real uncomfortable about what's getting ready to happen. So the systems and the processes for me was to be able to provide a place for them. But by golly, a kid could walk in and go, this is our structure. This is how we're going to start with this. We're going to do rhythm and then we're going to do this. And then we're going to turn and do this and then I'm going to pull my mouth. Like they knew there was a predictability level there that made them more comfortable. And I think when, you know, you talk about the success part of it that comes before that. So they know every time they walk in a yeah, exactly what's expected of them.
That's something I've really leaned into now in my own thought process and things that I'm sharing and teaching is the idea that predictability is sort of a, it's a, it's a predicate for a safe space. And when you create a safe space, then you're creating a greater sense of belonging, which leads to a greater sense of risk, which that whole thing's sort of circular. And what we're really wanting our students to man, we're really digressing from beginners, but this is a whole, this all starts in beginner band. You start. This process of we want them to feel belonging, so we recruit them. How do we retain them? Like this is all really goes together. But I that's just such AI hope this is really thought provoking for people that listening because it really is for me.
And it's so important. I mean, every rehearsal that I have, even now at the college level, I am dogmatic and I, I am very adamant that everything is structured in a very specific way so that it takes that part of the student thought process anxiety. All the stuff. Away they know that every single day at exactly the second when it's like literally 5859. Good afternoon, everybody, every single time. And if we do the same things now, that doesn't mean we're teaching the same concepts and stuff, but the structure is there so that I'm able to be more efficient as a teacher because the students are already prepared mentally for the structure of things, right? And the predictability piece is so critical.
Jamie, thank you for bringing this up. Because even though we're not talking about beginners right now, we are talking about beginners right now. We're talking about everybody, even at the professional world, you know, I mean for all of us, right? So steering the bus back toward the recruiting, you know, I mean, we everything ebbs and flows and I think we're all feeling it since COVID, right? This is a very specific, I mean, this is very tangible, I think for all of us across the world. So when things get harder in communities and like I mean things get easier, things get harder. What strategies, Jamie, have worked for you when the numbers were down and you were worried that they were trending down and not going to rebound, How did how did you get through that?
Well leave me pause because I'm trying to remember when I worried about numbers going down. Right, so you probably never did, but let's just assume. Well, that sounds awful to say that, but you know, to some degree it did right. And especially when I was in Frisco, because part of the numbers trending down was we kept opening campuses. Yes. And they just kept taking kids. Like when I was at Liberty, I was Liberty for 12 years. In that time, we opened three new high schools, all that took from us. So we would build and then it would go away and then we build and then they build a school and it go away and then we build and then covet hit and it'll go away, right. So it seemed like on a cycle that every three years what we built was decimated and we would start again. But it's interesting you mentioned the code thing. We just, I had this conversation last week in Missoula, Mt doing an in service thing up there with and it was wonderful. But one of the things we talked about was what happened during COVID is because is that people became way more analytical about how they spent their time, what they did, what they allowed their kids to do, right? We all pause for just a moment when the pace of everything slowed down, We go, do I really want to stress about this? Do I really want my kid to do this thing? Is it really worth their time, effort, energy? Are they really getting out of it what they're putting into it, right? So it did become, you know, now let's shift back post COVID is when we did the part of the recruiting that had the doctors send their emails in, right? Because we looked at like parents started looking at going, man, I don't know. That is an awful lot of time for you to be spending an awful lot of stress on you. And I don't see the value in that, right? But parent, I think parents started looking at that with, you know, with a bigger microscope. So like, yeah, the numbers would trend differently. At one point, I had a conversation with one of our middle school directors when he was talking about recruiting. And he goes, well, and I just don't know how to do that anymore because I don't know. I don't know what kids want. I go, hey, have you ever just sat down with some of your kids now and asked them why did they join and why are they still in? Right? Like, what is it to them? It goes back to that piece about kids talk to kids. You mean talk to the students? Yeah, right. And just find out, find out from them. Why are they there, you know?
That's yes, invite their feedback.
Yes, like that's that's to me, that's the battle. The battle is we keep going back at it sometimes. And by we I even mean just me back in the in those days would go at it without really truly knowing that's what they needed, right? Or that's what they were looking for. That's what they wanted. But yeah, so like, yeah, I never saw it trend down in the middle school, except we did open a new middle school and that zapped us pretty hard. But, you know, our focus, again, I'll just go back to the very first thing we said was creating a place where kids felt safe, they felt happy, they felt valued, all of those things. It's all the touchy feely stuff, right? But if they don't feel that stuff, and especially after COVID when they're analytical about it, why keep putting your hand in the blender if it's going to hurt?
Yeah, absolutely. And you've talked about connecting with parents based on how those skills are going to assist in future non music related career paths. But I would even argue a little bit, individual teachers that lean into the soft skills, that's going to play out well, not only in retention, but students learning empathy, learning how to communicate with one another, how to give feedback in a positive manner. Like those things are learned in a, in a really in a, in a really high functioning rehearsal space. I think those things become norms. And if that becomes the norm, they are learning the skill set that a lot of employers look for. Like, yes, you need to have the hard skills, but how do you take criticism? How do you give feedback? How do you, There's a lot of things that a lot of people, I know this from being in the private sector that employers are looking for certain skills that they're just not finding. Like this person checks the boxes for what you can do. Like you can do this one thing, this one task which we need, but you don't have any of the personal skills that are going to allow you to be successful in this job. Right. And that can be developed very much so by what you just talked about.
Oh, absolutely. Like I used to laugh and there's, you know, this was a good thing to say to the high school, the 8th grade kids coming to high school and those parents around the corner from us was a Chick-fil-A. I used to go all the time. I mean, I didn't get this perfectly. Choose a feature by eating salads. But I go to Chick-fil-A so often that the owner there, a guy by the name of Hank Durbin, he came out to me one day. He goes, hey, man. Then we were just talking. He goes, do you know, I can always tell when it's one of your kids interviewing for a job here go really, Why is that? He goes, they look me in the eye the entire time I'm talking because it freaks me out. It freaks me out. He goes, but I go, I can always tell it to your kids because they make eye contact, right? You look at a parent and go, here's the thing that your kids are going to learn by being in the band program. And you never mentioned how to put a read on straight and how to line the like. You never mentioned that, but you say they're going to learn how to look at people and talk to them. They're going to learn how to work together. And I know, you know, the SEL thing went through little, you know, it got a little rough in the boxing ring for that at some point. For those who are listening to want to be nerdy, Daniel Goleman wrote the book back in the 90s called Emotional Intelligence. It's really thick and really boring. You can find the article on a Harvard Business Review that tears it down real quick and simple. But that really was an offshoot of Howard Gardner's Frames of mind, right? Multiple intelligences. That's where it all started. And we looked at kids and we go, you know, they got to learn. Let's talk just specifically about a band thing. They got to learn more than just how to play F for F# and part of this thing. We did it in Chicago to the program itself, right? The presentation was called fill the chair. Fill the chair. We got one job as teachers that's to fill the chair. I can't teach an empty chair to do anything. And so in the process, what we did it Chicago, which also they did at TMEA recently. We did a Colorado MEA. They did it in Florida recently. There's been a bunch of New Jersey did it. Anyways, Winger joined in. They gave us chairs that used. We put them out there. We had silver pins. We walked up John Pasquale, walk up and say, John, I got one question for you. Here's the thing, one word, if you didn't have music in your life or if you didn't have music growing up, what would be missing in your life now? And people would stop. They'd think they'd pop them in that pen. They'd write their word on the chair. In Chicago alone, we had over 800 people write on the chair. Never once did somebody write down that they wouldn't know the difference between F and F# on a trumpet. It was things like belonging. It was things like, you know, understanding, working with people, friends, spouse. People would put names. Those are the things that we all got from being in music program eventually, right? And it's the things that we deny kids if we're not getting them into the program, you know, So like it's interesting to say, again, if I'm looking at a fifth grade parent or, you know, parent of 1/5 grader or beginner, whatever level, and I say, this ain't just about teaching FF sharp this eye contact, this is working together. This is where they're going to find friends. This is where they're going to find their spouse. This is where, you know, all those things that really matter to us again, to the 92% down the road, right? The things that really matter to us are going to be happening right here, right now. And so, like, I know I'm just gapping and yapping. Let's go back to what I said earlier about the fear. When people fear, they don't have the time, the talent OR the money, but they also have a big fear about missing out on something, right? That's the motivation When you go, hey, like, you don't have to do this band, orchestra, choir. You don't have to do this music thing. You don't have to let me show you this chair. This is the stuff that you're getting ready to miss out on. You don't have to let your kid do it. No, no, no, but let me show you this chair. This is this is what you're getting ready to say no to. Hey, let me bring this chair to the next meeting of the school board when they say they want to cut the music program and look him in the face and go, Hey, you can cut the music. But this is what you're getting rid of. You're getting rid of joy and belonging and friendship and all of these things. I don't think you want to be the people that do that.
Kiss boy, this right. This went from like the dog and pony showed up. We've really got a full. Service but it's but it's all related. It's. All related.
All related. Yes, it is interesting that this conversation started with getting kids into music programs to here is everything that is out there and what they're missing if they don't, if we don't find a way to pull them in. And of course we're not going to get 100%, but like, yeah. And just there's so much value here that we could do in whole other podcasts just about let's look at the future of music education based on what we do for an incoming 5th grader, right? That trajectory is fantastic. So, OK, so for a director that is like staring down the barrel of the small enrollment class and they're overwhelmed right now. Do you have any thoughts or practical steps that you would recommend that they take this semester? Like we're they've got this one semester to look at the fall to start kind of turning that ship.
Quality is attractive. When John mentioned that a little while ago, he's like, you know, you got to be good at what it is that you do and you can take any size group of kids even if you don't have a full ensemble, right? Well, the best teachers that I ever met in Texas was kind of named Scott Deppie. John, do you remember Scott? You guys remember Scott, right? And Scott had honor bands that like all different levels. And when you'd find out how he did it, he literally was spending one-on-one time teaching kids. It wasn't just about teaching a full ensemble was like, I'm going to teach that kid to do this thing and then they could and then rotate to the next kids. So if you've got a small group, you can still find a way to teach individual kids how to be excellent at what they do. And there's, I don't think there's many things, there aren't many things out there that are more attractive than excellence. Excellence at what we do, whether it's band, it doesn't matter, right? We are anything, right? We are attracted to excellence in things. But like, to me, that's the starting point. If I am looking at, you know, an ensemble, I'm not going to be able to play whole swan because I don't have any trumpets and I don't have a flute player. Right? But you can still teach what you have to be excellent at what they do so that when presented with that, you know, the dog and pony show, you can still show off a skill level that kids can achieve by being involved in the program.
Yeah, you know, I'm just thinking this whole conversation because it was started — when we were conceptualizing what we'd like to talk about today — it was really about beginner band recruiting. But this is really, in my mind, just it has expanded to like, we took something so finite and I was thinking about what are the skills that are going to help directors do XY so they can have stronger recruiting classes, but ultimately just the responsibilities. If we take on what we have by getting them with us and how that affects their entire life. And what would it be like if they didn't have that? I just can never really ask that question.
Like here's — you did this, the chair analogy — so fantastic. Here are all the things that I got from band. Like you said, they're all personal things, things that live with them on a daily basis. And it's not F for F#. They probably don't remember if they got a one or two, whatever. But what they played — we forget. I can't remember what I did in high school. I remember one piece we did, Capriccio Espanol. We got a 2 at a pre-UIL and the band director almost lost his mind because he'd never gotten twos. And I can tell you we worked our tails off between that point and UIL and we got ones, but it's kind of beside the point. I don't remember anything else. And the only reason I remember that is because we got a 2 and it was this huge blowup. Had it been about the experience of playing such an incredibly difficult piece, especially for our first clarinets, that's the only reason I think about that. I don't think about it from the musical perspective necessarily. And even that makes me think backward like, OK, what are we doing? Why are we doing it? What is the large picture? This big picture — we have an immense responsibility. I think we do. I would say that, if we're looking at music education, the beginner barrier is where it starts. And if we can break down that barrier, these students — 92% of them — are going to be, we hope, if we do our jobs, lovers of art and also patrons, lovers of art and music. And the other 8% are going to create the cycle again so that the next 92% one generation away are doing the same thing. I'm looking at this very big picture because really we're thinking about the success of art in general. I mean, we're fighting for funding all the time. I doubt we would have to fight as hard if we took a much more holistic approach to the why part of having students be in beginner band. I know that sounds ridiculously way up here, but in any case.
Well, let's talk — I'm going to set you up because I know the answer to this. David, your wife, is she a musician?
Right, right. Think about that. Like all the things in life that happened to us because somebody made sure we had a program that we could be a part of, right? And eventually all those things work together to find themselves together in the way that they're supposed to be. John, I interrupted you. I didn't mean to.
No, please, this is great because I was just saying this is such a fantastic conversation, so helpful in so many ways, right. So this is the point in the podcast where we ask — it's very serious — all of our guests 3 standing questions. And so I'll take the first. Do you have a soapbox topic? And it can be about anything — music-like doesn't have to be.
I have tons of them. How many soapboxes do you want to hear? This is my favorite one right now because in the job that I have now with Music and Arts, going to different schools in Colorado and helping out, I see a lot of student teachers. I see a lot of student teachers that are at convention. I see a lot of student teachers who are getting ready to graduate, who are standing at the conductor baton booth and they're measuring their baton and they're conducting — which I love, I get it, I love that they are excited and enthused about the art form of what they're doing — but I stop and go, listen, that's great, get the baton, blah. But if you can't sit next to a clarinet kid and get the reed on straight, none of this is going to matter. If you can't figure out where the teeth are supposed to be in this brass or where the tongue placement is — like all the pedagogical stuff, right? Like we've got to get better at — and by we, I just mean collectively — put an emphasis on the pedagogy that supports the art form and less worried about, you know...
We used to make a joke — yeah, I was going to run up and take the baton out of their hand and hand them a Vic Firth SD1. And I'd go, this is the only baton you're going to need for your non-varsity middle school band, right? Like this is what you're going to need.
But we've got to get to the point where we emphasize pedagogy before we emphasize the art, because without the pedagogy, the art's never going to happen in the first place. That's a soapbox.
There we go. Fair enough. We hear you. Agree with that. We co-authored a book just about this stuff so we definitely get it, right. The second question is, is there a particular book or books that have inspired you in your journey? Doesn't have to be music, just whatever.
There's an entire bookshelf right here that has mostly business books, which oddly enough — and the one that I recently just finished by Stephen Miller, not like political Stephen Miller, different Stephen Miller — called Uncopyable. And the question in that book is, and it's a business book right, but the question is: what is it that you do, whatever it is that you do, that nobody else can do? Which is kind of a recruiting thing, right? What can we provide that none of these other classes in this school building can? Math is not going to provide the opportunity to make eye contact and have conversations. It's not going to offer the opportunity for creating and doing the art thing. So I finished Uncopyable, which is a great one. What is it that you do or that you have that is unique that can't be provided anywhere else? Stephen Miller, Uncopyable.
Yeah. All right, Jamie, I have the final question and arguably the most important one. What is your favorite time signature?
My favorite time signature. I think 7/8, to be completely honest. I've never been asked that before, but 7/8 to me is a little bit more — to me it's more dancy, right? It's more dancey than like, so the people that do waltzes, they'll argue and scream, right? Three four, you know. But like 7/8 is more spicy dance, right?
Well, Jamie, that's a great answer, but we here on the Common Time Podcast have only one right answer.
Nope, nope. Cut time? No.
It is common time. It's 4/4. No. So 7/8 has been quite popular. Our first — when we launched this podcast, we're in Season 4 now — our first guest was Jerry Junkin. And Jerry's was 7/8, several other pretty prominent guests as well. Yeah, many folks over the years. 7/8 — and for the most part almost everybody has had an 8 in the bottom. There's been very few people that have done any kind of — it's either been asymmetric or you know 6/8 and so forth, but not no 2/4s.
Well, actually — we can edit that, right? We can edit and I'll just say common time, right?
It's common time as well done. Jamie Weaver, every day for the win, Jamie. Thanks again so much for your time today. It's been so good, so insightful. It's actually got me really thinking more deeply even about the overall process that all music educators are going through. Even when you mention these kids that are checking out the batons — are they thinking about what that responsibility is like? Are we even asking them to think about that?
I don't know that we are. No, because we don't want to scare them. We don't want to scare them, right?
We don't want to scare them. Although — do you remember getting your first baton? I do. I was so excited about it. I even got a nice little special case for it. So now I have William D. Rivelli's baton right here that he used, and that obviously means a lot to me. But I mean, I remember getting my first one — it had a cork handle and it was this thick.
Exactly. It's kind of like that one. It was this thick white stick. Yes — for our listeners that aren't watching, I'm showing the old-time style. This is actually called the King David, which I think is pretty nice.
Listen, my first one was made by Morris Hermel. Do you remember Morris? And Morris Hermel made batons for Toscanini, and I'll never forget meeting him, talking to him. And that was my very first baton — a Morris Hermel. That is a great, great gentleman.
Well, this has been such an excellent conversation. Jamie, thank you so much for your time.
Thank you.
All the wonderful — we really appreciate it, incredibly helpful. Well, listen, seriously, here's going to be the plug and this is for you and everybody else: Jamie, jamieweaver.org. Literally, if you need anything, especially if you need anything, shout. Thank you my friend.
Thank you.
And that's a wrap on today's episode. Thanks for spending part of your day with us on the Common Time Podcast. If today's conversation gave you something to think about or something to try with your students, we'd love for you to share this episode with a colleague. And you can also follow us on social media for episode clips, behind the scenes content, and updates on our upcoming guests. And if you haven't already, please be sure to subscribe so that you never miss an episode. Until next time, keep making music and keep making a difference.