Welcome to the Common Time Podcast, a show designed to give music educators practical, inspiring ideas for you and your program. Each week we sit down with world class educators, composers, and conductors to talk about teaching, leadership and building programs that thrive without burning yourself out. So whether you're a band, orchestra, or choir director, our goal is simple to help you grow and stay inspired and remember why you fell in love with teaching music in the first place. This is season 4, and we're diving even deeper. More real conversations, more actionable takeaways, and more voices shaping the future of music education. Let's get into the episode. Our guest today is Emily Moss. Welcome, Emily.
Thank you so much, David, John, so happy to be here.
We are so excited to have you so. Doctor Emily Moss is the director of bands at the University of New Mexico, where she conducts the Wind Symphony. She also overseas the graduate conducting program, teaches other courses and conducting in literature. And we are so happy that you're on with us today. John, why don't you get us started?
Thanks, David. Hi, Emily. We appreciate your time. So I'm just going to start off right away. So we just kind of take us back to your path of, of getting into higher education and taking over a fantastic college band program. And just how did it happen for you?
Sure. I, I feel like this could be a very long story, so I'll give kind of the, the truncated version. I was a music education major at the University of Washington, where I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, and I decided to go back to Graduate School after six years of teaching middle school band. And really my name was just to, to get a, a degree and I was super excited to, to become a better musician. But really with the end result of going back to teaching middle school, I just, I wanted to get a higher end degree so I could be a better teacher for my students. And it was my professors at the University of Northern Colorado in Greeley that saw something in me that I didn't see in myself, which was, wow, you're good at this. You should consider teaching college, something I had never considered before. And so they convinced me to stay at Northern Colorado after my master's and get my doctorate there. And so I've been now teaching. This is my 18th year of teaching college and in and in what seems like a not predicted path for me when I when I began as a middle school band director all those years ago. So that's the, yeah, the shortest version.
Well, that's such a great version though. So we actually had, we had Sarah McQueen on talking about graduate programs several weeks or months ago. I'm not sure when they aired, but one of the things we talked about is when do you go back to grad school? Why do you go back to grad school? And I love people that go, that teach and then go back because they want to be a better teacher as opposed to, I want to advance necessarily. Not to say that's wrong, but it just, I think it just says something about the, the, the path of being more, I don't know, organic and real. And you're going to take something out of it that you wouldn't necessarily otherwise. So I think that's fantastic.
It is also fascinating that the two of us have similar paths. I was a middle school band director and that's all I ever wanted to do. And I decided to go to my Graduate School so I could get paid more, right? And then I was going to go back to the public school system and I decided to stay for my doctorate. And now I've been here.
And there you are.
Ever since when I was, I was the same. I mean, I didn't go to grad school to. I wanted no part of teaching college. Well, I kind of did the my. Radar at all. Ever. I never thought about it. I kind of that point as I was assistant director in the Dallas Fort Worth area and I hit Year 5 and that's about the time you start thinking like, am I going to go be a director of bands at some point? Do I start leading that direction? And I decided like, no, actually, I'd rather go back to school than kind of do that. I'd like to go and actually go back as a grad assistant and do like not the grad school where you do it like in the summers. And like I wanted to go actually experience that. So I made that choice and I got a call at the end of it saying it was an interim position that University of Texas Arlington, like, hey, we think you'd be a great fit. And would you like to interview for this? And that's just where it started. I, I had no intention. I was going to just go back and do Texas, Texas band.
So I was, I think we're all three on similar paths there.
So I do have another question for you about now as a college educator. One of the things I, I really love loved about being in the college world is that you're training music educators, you're, you know, shaping the next generation of teachers. So when you're working with Future Music educators and performers, that also brings kind of a unique responsibility. And I'm curious, how do you help your students bridge the gap between sort of the technical skills that are really important and musical purpose?
Yeah. Oh, great use of that phrase there. I'm going to actually going to tie this into what you were just saying a second ago about Sarah McCoy and, and, and her comment about sort of the path and when to go back to Graduate School. Because I, I find that students who are undergrads who are already thinking, OK, I'm definitely going to get my masters. I'm definitely going to get my doctorate. I, I want to conduct. And so they, they see that path. I, I, I usually caution them right away because of the importance of just developing who they are as a human being outside of academia. And I think a, a large part of that is going out and working with young people and, and teaching them. As we all know, the vast majority of what we do to your question is train teachers and train future musical leaders. So I don't know, I firmly believe you have to have time in the trenches and, and really and really getting to know what that is like first hand if you're really going to do that in the future. But to answer your question directly, I suppose bringing what you believe is at the core of your musical being to your learning of technique is so very important to the whole process. Let me see if I can say that in a in a different way. If you find yourself losing that, why am I here? Question why? Why do I even want to be a musician then? It doesn't matter a lick. What about your technique? So I, I guess for me, I, I, I'm constantly trying to remind everybody about the love and the joy and the fun that is playing music and getting to make music together.
OK, so. Yeah, it's supposed to be fun. Like, yeah, OK, yeah, you might want to work on your scales there and like the pitch over there. Yeah, that's, you know, get with the tuner and a metronome and blah, blah, blah. But if somehow, I mean, I don't know about you guys, but I see so many people in university level, they seem to have lost their spark. They've they've lost their reason why they're there. And I'm not saying everybody, but I, I think it's part of our job to keep that spark alive and keep them remembering why they love music and why they decided they wanted to go into music in the 1st place. And I don't know, I feel like our job is our large ensemble directors is crucial in that because it's getting to make music collectively. And that's for so many of us where we found our joy to begin with.
I couldn't agree more.
Yeah, so. I'm confident that one of the reasons why your ensembles play so well is because of the ensemble culture that you build. And that's been, I mean, for my understanding, this is how I mean, you've approached this your entire career. So, So what does ensemble culture mean to you? And specifically at the, at the higher education level, but could also be in the public school level? And how do you intentionally build it from day one to create a place where there is musical success, but there's a safe space to be able to have it?
Yeah, I think culture is everything. I don't, I don't think that you can have an excellent performance of music at the highest level with a group that doesn't like each other or maybe they don't feel comfortable or safe to really be expressive. I mean, what we do as, as we all know, is extremely vulnerable and part of building that culture is letting people feel like they can be who they are, which is a musician who's in the process of learning and developing. So for me, it's, it's, it's paramount. So how do you do that from day one? Well, for me, it, it, it comes from authenticity from me, from, from the very beginning. So I am very much a believer in servant leadership and letting people know that I am there for them. This is not about me. This is not about even the University of New Mexico. It's about this here group of people and what we are going to collectively do together. I create a system in my ensemble that elevates leadership within. I have section leaders in addition to my graduate students and they are part of our leadership team and I empower them. They are my deputies. They, they are, they represent me and, and what I am trying to build and I empower them to build from within their sections, build within the larger woodwinds and brass and percussion areas to really create something that they believe in and that they feel strongly about. So I guess that's, I guess that's part of it. I mean, saying grassroots effort to cliche, that's, that's I think a, a big part of what you, what you need to do. It can't just it's not about you, it's about what you're building with, with a group. And I, I believe you can hear that in performances as you mentioned.
Agreed 100%. Yeah, I absolutely agree. The culture you can, you know, you can walk into a program and immediately sense culture. And I think it is you're right. It makes a huge difference in how they perform and how they feel belonging in that performance. So I love that.
May I just interject something really, really quickly about that, because I want to be very careful in this conversation around culture. And, and, and that is to say that I believe that there are some band directors that, that kind of will make it as an excuse that their band program is, is like that they're building it and they, they inherited something. And we're just trying to rebuild the culture, which sometimes it, it is code for. We don't sound very good. And we're, we're kind of allow allowing people to play poorly. And I'm not holding them to technical or musical standards because we're building a culture of positivity. So I, I, for what that's worth, I, I just want to, I just want to say. That because I have another question for you, but why don't we dig into that just a little bit? Because there's obviously a balance here between musical excellence and the culture you're building. If we're calling that positivity or whatever that is, how do you balance achieving musical excellence while also having this sense of positive belonging and so forth?
Yeah, sure. I mean, I, I think most people would agree that when you have an ensemble where the students know that through hard work, they're they are sounding better every day. They're putting the work in and they're getting better and they can hear the difference. That in turn feeds that positive culture. So they're they're not mutually exclusive and in fact can work together quite well. You can build this positive culture while you're establishing good habits of practice and technique and norms within a rehearsal and so on and so forth. And they certainly can work against each other. We've all seen negative cultures because they're like, you know, there's yelling and you guys suck and you don't work hard enough and so on and so forth. But this finding this delicate balance of building positive culture through dedication and hard work and results, I think is, I mean, that's the sweet spot, I guess this we're all hopefully we're all working tours, we're all dealing with that.
Yeah, it's. It really is important that at the end of the day, our job is to teach students to play their instruments really well. And, and we, we can do that with a large variety of elements, right? But at the end of the day, we want them to be safe. We want them to feel comfortable, but we want them to play their instruments really well. And that standard has
Amen, brother.
Yeah, so you're. So good, that's why. And the person at the front, the director, whomever really does have a lot of influence and control on both of those elements. So it's really a it's incumbent upon us and especially college teachers sharing that with music. Future Music educators like you do control a lot of the variables here. But musical excellence can't be sacrificed, at least in my opinion, because I'm building a culture. It should be. It should be integrated into why I'm building the culture in kind of from my perspective. But let's shift a little bit over to, oh, go ahead, that's.
Just good final thing, Let's be honest, it's hard, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. It takes time so. You know, new teachers out there, people in their first, you know, 3-4, five years. Like if you're not there, you're thinking, Oh my gosh, vigilance, patience, you'll get there.
Yeah. Well, Speaking of kind of the process over time, I want to shift to rehearsal design. Just briefly, how does, how do you approach rehearsal design differently now then earlier in your career? And then kind of the second part, what, what has experience taught you about efficiency, clarity, student engagement, those types of things?
Oh, that's such a good question. I think one of the most important things I've learned over time is that you can't always predict exactly where the ensemble's going to be on a given day. And so, you know, we, we talked about having flexibility and I think that's extremely important for me. I, I feel like one of my real strengths is that I, I am pretty rigorous in my planning of, of rehearsals and my layout of a cycles set of rehearsals and then within a given rehearsal will give within a given weeks rehearsals. I try to remain very flexible in terms of what's happening. And I'll, I'll just give a, for instance, just this last Friday, we had three of our section leaders out for doctoral auditions. And there was just a different vibe that there were Subs on, on those chairs. And I was going to really go deep dig digging in on a couple of spots and a couple of pieces. And it, it became obvious early on in the rehearsal that was not going to happen today. And so we pivoted and we did some good running of longer sections, took one piece that I was going to drill in on a, on a section and ended up just, it was a longer work, about 12 1/2 minutes. And we ran it. And there was real value to that, but it was not what I had planned. And so it goes. So having that, having that, that educational jargon phrase with itness, hopefully that everybody knows probably from Robert Duke, but having that sense in the moment does that like, OK, what I had planned is not going to going to fly today. And now what can I do to get the most out of this rehearsal? I would say is probably the thing that I feel that I've gained the most in just that sort of ability to do that right.
So as a mentor to teachers both in your own graduate conducting studio, but also teachers across the country at all levels, do you have any advice or do you have a concept that you emphasize as you're teaching that feels simple but is actually transformational over time?
That's a heavy one, guys.
We saved them for you.
Well, I think the very first thing that comes to my mind, which is so simple, and maybe this is exactly what you're asking for, is just the concept of saying listen. And that I think more novice teachers know that they're supposed to teach their ensembles to listen, but they don't really know what or how like what, what to teach them to listen for and how to teach them to listen for that thing. And for me, this is so, so, so crucial. I, I had a conversation actually with one of my section leaders this last week about him feeling insufficient in, in this sectional setting because he didn't feel like his listening skills were as good as they should be. We had this great conversation about, well, what are, what are you listening for and how do you get better at that? And he's not going to be an educator. He's a master in performance. But this idea that at so many levels, not just for the future educator, but for the future professional musician, you know what and how we listen for things in the rehearsal setting is I mean that, that's, that's everything for our career would say.
Couldn't agree more. John actually wrote John wrote a dissertation that we. Ended up exact. Topic. Actually, yeah. And we're not. Kidding. Anymore with what you're saying? Yeah. And we, we converted that. We converted it over time into a book that we published in 2020, I think. But the title's directed listening model. And it's the idea of how we not only what we're listening for, but we, it's this is kind of a model how we prioritize and, and those kinds of things. But you're the whole, I mean, John can tell the genesis, but of being unprepared as a first year teacher, getting on the podium and all the things come at you and your responses are do it again or play louder, play softer as opposed to what really happened here and how do I categorize it and then prioritize what comes first. What do I in? There's a lot of information that as a music educator, as a young one, like you've been playing one single role, sitting in a chair playing an instrument versus, OK, all of this is coming at me and I don't. That's one of the things even in higher education, I think is a challenge for us all to teach.
You know, because there's there's not a lot of experiences. How do you get them into a situation where they have forced to hear live sound? Yeah. And that's a that's a real challenge.
John, I'm curious if you, you know what your experience was this in, in doing your research. But I, I find that our profession in terms of, you know, learning how to listen and particularly learning to conduct while you're listening at the same time is, is absolutely one of the most difficult things that we have to do. And we never stop learning how to do it. I, I, that's, for me, this is actually one of the things kind of at the core of my pedagogy when teaching graduate conductors is just to remind them that, hey, this is really hard. It takes a very long time to learn how to do it. And where you are right now is exactly where you're supposed to be on the path. I've been doing this a really long time and I'm still learning every single day how to listen better. So I, you know, it's, yeah, that first year teacher, they don't know Jack about listening. And it's not because nobody tried to teach it to them, or they didn't necessarily. I mean, maybe they could have their ensemble director could have been a little bit more intentional about asking, you know, guiding their listening. Maybe, probably, probably. But it's OK. You're new at this. You're going to, you're going to, you're going to get better. Yeah, go ahead, John.
I have found that I mean, we all assume that it's innate, you know that these players come to us and have these skill sets. I mean how this all started for me was when I was student teaching I, I gave the most beautiful downbeat or so I thought of course, but the most beautiful downbeat ever sound comes at me and I, I don't know what to do with it. I, I don't like what and, and that made me, I was like, OK, I still have some stuff to learn, but then I had my first classroom and then I was getting angry. I mean, not angry, but I was getting frustrated because why was I not better prepared? And so in the research for my dissertation part of things before we expanded it, I surveyed at the time, this was in 2000 and 6:00-ish at the time that the, the 34 most commonly used conducting textbooks across the country, though actually really, really across the world really. And only two of the 34 ever mentioned how to guide conductor's ears. One of them was in the appendix and the other was in Chapter 11 of 13, or however many they were.
Interesting, right?
Right. So I was like, there in lie is a problem, right? And so I mean, for anybody listening, I mean, over the past four seasons, we've been we've been having these podcast episodes, we've been talking about this a lot. It's a process where you are is okay, you know, just get better every day, learn something new every day because it's so hard, right?
Yeah, I'm sorry, one more thing and then we can move on. This is going back to just my own, my own pedagogy. And maybe where things have evolved for me personally is me trying to be more directive in helping my grad students learn how to listen. I'm realizing that nobody did that for me, and I don't fault my teachers at all. I'm extremely grateful to them and for them. But hey, let's work on listening for this particular thing and let me actually talk you through step one, step two, step three. I mean, how many of us were afforded that opportunity to, you know, case in point, your, your, about your, your textbooks, so. We, you know, so anybody listening, go to school and study with Doctor Moss because she's going to teach you how to do this because I'm going to put this up here too, like you can also, you can also buy this book. It's helpful.
Yes, please do in fact.
But you know, but go if you're watching if you're listening to Moss. And by the way, any public school teachers out there that are trying to find PPD sessions? This is a great topic and Emily, I mean, you would, I'm assuming, love to be a part of that and so would us just I mean, get out there and spread the word. This is such well.
Something that we, I have a good colleague on the East Coast I've been working with on a completely separate project, but it's kind of many years of, or tangentially aligned is the idea of allowing the students to be part of the process. Because a lot of information in a music classroom comes from the podium as opposed to the students actually being given opportunity. Now it kind of goes back to culture because there has to be a safe space. They have to actually be trained to speak up to, to, to be brave enough to say, here's what I heard. But it, it has to be like more specific from the podium like, hey, what did you hear? What did you hear in measure 23 from clarinets? If you're sitting next to the oboe, what it was like? Give them specific things to listen for and then allow them to provide that feedback. And then have someone else in the ensemble compare, contrast and create these moments of like, OK, now look to the person next to you and tell them something wonderful you just heard and something you feel like we don't need to grow in. But creating an environment where not all information is flowing from front to back, but it's more multi directional flow of information. And when you're talking about listening and guided listening, you know it's it's totally it doesn't happen a lot.
Yeah, I want to add something to that. It's a tactic that I'd love to employ working with high school groups. OK, what did you hear in measure 20? The example you just gave David measure 28 and the clarinets you right there in the tuba section and they, you know, instead of waiting for this is also a Bob Duke, you know idea. I didn't I didn't come up with this instead of waiting for hands to go up because those five students that are always listening. What about that? Sorry, Tubas, I'm not, I'm not picking on you that's just the instrument that popped up.
No, you're you're exactly right. Yeah, they. And then when that kid doesn't have an answer, you say, no problem, let's do that again, everybody, let's try it again. And then I'm going to ask you again. Come back and it now all of a sudden they are perked up and there is specific listening we have guided them. I should have mentioned that because that is a huge component. If you just ask them it broadly, you're going to get the same 5 kids every time, but you know your kids. We all know our students. We know their names. So in honor band, obviously we're, it's a little different, but like I can say to the first chair, second chair, whatever. Jennifer at measure 17, what happened in the trombones like it where was a disjunct, you know, connection there. Talk to me about it. And when you start doing that, then everybody actually starts listening too, because now he might call on me, he might say I'm next. So it's kind of moving that forward.
So when we talked, you were talking about your section leader, that not feeling confident in his listening. And I think sometimes that a lot of our students probably feel that there's many young musicians that struggle with confidence, they struggle with identity. So I'm curious, how do you support students in finding what is going to be their voice while still holding, you know, high musical standards across the board?
Well, I think reminding them when they are in those moments of reflection of like, man, I'm not very good at this, this and this and I, man, I, I feel I'm curious if you, the 2 of you see this as well. This generation right now seems to be extremely self critical. There's there's a lot of yeah, I can't do this, this, this, this, this, this. So I feel like part of my job is reminding them of the things that they do well and that's a part of their identity. Don't don't dismiss this other thing just because you know you can do it. It is valuable in the following ways. And then trying to help them identify the areas of growth without it being something that is a deficiency that's that's like career ending or something like, hey, we're all like we were saying before, we're all on a path on various skill development. And yeah, you do these four things really well. And man, if you could strengthen this X Y and Z, you'd be a really well-rounded insert conductor, educator, etcetera. And I think how that does tie into identity is when they can remind themselves of what they are good at. It builds, builds their confidence and reminds them that who they are as a person is unique. And they bring, they bring these sets of skills that are unique to them in terms of the, the makeup of it, you know, the, the diagram that is all those various component skills added together in, in various ways.
Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. I when I ask my students a question about how they did on the podium or how the rehearsal segment went, they have to always start with something positive. I won't even, but that's not their first, typically.
That's probably not their first day.
Well, now they just know to go there because I don't go on until they say anything positive.
Good for you, John.
But first they have to start with something positive and sometimes it's a 5 alarm dumpster fire but like we all got to sort of the same. OK, that's we'll start there. That's, you know, just so that there's some positivity in the room because I mean, I think like all of us, I mean, I'm hyper critical of everything I do, right? And I just play it through my mind. I could have been more efficient, could have been better at this, could have been more artistic here, you know, but I think we all do that, right? So, but I guess a question that I have for you because before a couple questions ago, you were talking about how you're always learning, trying to be better, trying to better yourself for your students, which is wonderful. So are you able to share something that you're currently learning or perhaps unlearning as an educator?
Good, good twist there. He's got a loaded question.
Yeah, I would say something that's been on my mind lately and call it a hot take if you want. But you know, we are we are in a period of time where there are a lot of master teachers that are that are leaving us. And, and we, maybe our generation has held on a pedestal for quite, quite some time the, the masters, that of our, of the wind band world. And so I've been sort of grappling with the handing over of the torch, so to speak, and realizing that we have a, a new generation coming, coming up that learned how to be educators and conductors in quite a different world than those master teachers of ours. And I, I, I find myself, especially in the past week or so, really reflecting on how things are probably going to change in good ways and maybe just different ways, not good or bad. But so I find that to be a very exciting time. And I'm also faced with my own like, oh, I'm kind of no longer in the younger generation anymore. I'm now a part of the, the, the generation that is that is looking to the younger folks, so to speak, and, and what exciting things that they are bringing to the table that are not even in my realm of thinking. So I think that's something that I'm learning right now that every generation in our field has something to offer, not just the, the masters, not just the people that we have always thought of. And that I, please don't take that the wrong way. I'm not this is, you know, all, all reverence and respect, but it's, I think it's an exciting time and we're going to start hearing from some new and different voices and I'm looking forward to that.
Yeah, it's, it is interesting to reflect on. There's been a lot of changes that in recent days and I thinking about the other generations and younger generations. I you go to Midwest and like I, I went, you see people coming down the elevator like is that kid 12? Like it's there's, you know, like I feel like that now. I'm like, I used to be that kid, you know, and this is not a kid. I mean, he's probably 27, 28. He's been teaching a few years. And I just feel like there's just you get to a point where you're looking back on all of those things. So it will be very interesting to see kind of how things move forward in the next decade or two.
So I had a fascinating conversation recently with Professor Haithcock about this kind of peripherally, but it, but he essentially made the comment about how his students that are now leaders in our profession are some of the smartest people he's ever known. And how, you know, his generation, what they did to pave the way for this, this now this generation that is so well trained, so well educated. It was a wonderful, it was a beautiful thought. And he's another one that I, that is just, I respect so deeply for what he's given and for him to hear him say, no, no, no, it's my, my students that are now out there, right?
Well, it's his students and people like you and people. I mean, there's a it's sure. Sure, you know.
You know, but that but that is true. You know, I mean, I've been thinking a lot about this too, since Bob's passing. And you know, it's interesting because who do we look up to now, especially in the college world, right? You have people like Emily Trinan, like you like Don McKinney. I mean, people that are just phenomenal in the field, right? You're now the New World Order and I think that's really exciting too. I'm I'm all fired up about it.
Yeah, I'm excited. I don't think I've really thought so much about how that really has shifted in the last decade, right? Like since I've finished my doctorate, like I finished my doctorate in 2013. I guess like since then it's a completely different, you know, we had like people that were coming in to conduct a group were Bob Reynolds and Craig Kirkoff and, you know, Alan McMurray, these folks. And it is a I'd never really thought we really have shifted in about 10 years. It's a new world.
Yeah, very interesting. I'm going to have to give this much thought now that we've been processing and I haven't been processing that way. So let's shift just really quickly before we kind of wrap up and go in some a different direction. I'm curious for our listeners that are teaching middle school, high school, well even college as well, what advice would you give about we mentioned this kind of earlier, sustaining joy and growth in the profession long term?
Yeah, well, I can, I can share with you what is what is impacted me the most and that is having a deep fulfilling life outside of my job. That and is important and it's I love it. It's of course a big part of my identity, but it is not my only identity. And I take great pride in the fact that I spend a good amount of time with my family. I make, I have two daughters who are junior and sophomore in high school, my husband and I'm making sure that I am a contributor to our household. I, I, I mean that not, not financially, but like, you know, emotionally through my, through my presence and, you know, I think as my career has progressed. And so this is, I'm, I'm very clear to say that I, I, I get it early in people's career, even as a middle school or high school director, you feel this pressure that you have to do X Y and Z. And I guess I would just say to anybody who feels that, that it's a long road, this career is a long road. And there is no timeline that is mandatory or requisite. And if, you know, you take some time off to have a family or you need to care for a, a family member or you don't do that massive project this year because some other things came up and so on and so forth. It's going to sustain you in ways that if you're just in the grind all the time, it, it, it just won't. I take good, good care of myself in terms of like exercise and, and health. Those are priorities for the for me, they always have been. And I, I just think that's what has allowed me to stay invigorated throughout my career. Yeah, that's what I would say.
It's it's just banned. As we all say in the office as we all say it's just I had a had a colleague at Cal State LA, where I used to work. My saxophone professor, Jeffrey Benedict, who's who I love so dearly, now retired. He used to say, hey, nobody's going to die today. This isn't heart surgery, people. It's just music, I mean, yeah, we love it, it's important, but nobody's going to die today and I, I just, I appreciated that so much because you can get so wound up and your identity is all based on a singular success or failure or whatever.
That's very true man. It's damn. When I was younger I didn't. I wasn't as well. It's, you know, yeah, it is. Yeah. It took a while, You know, even when I got to Michigan, I was like, I have imposter syndrome so bad that I just have to work so hard to be able to compete. Compete is not the right word to maintain the standard that is expected, right. But I'm coming to realize now that if, maybe if I just took better care of myself, you know, maybe things would have been. I mean, they're fine, you know? But it's just. Yeah. Yeah, you do think about it, right? So. For what that's worth for it. Yeah. Anybody listening? But I think, oh please, Emily, if I may just quickly, I, I think it's no accident that many of us that, that have made it all the way up to, to, you know, higher Ed and have gotten fairly prominent positions or, or whatever that for, for many of us, we, we equate getting there with, oh, it's because I was grinding. I just grinded this out for, you know, all those years. And, and you know, then like, well, all you, you, you people over there and I, I know that is, that's not true. There are plenty of middle and high school directors that feel like they're, they're grinding it out, grinding it out.
With that question. But it's, I guess I just what I'm trying to say is it doesn't have to be like that. You, you, you can decide early in your career, not late. Like, oh, if only I had realized this five years ago. But like, how about right now? Just be good with where you're at and be find ways of feeling successful in perhaps non traditional ways. If I may plug a chapter in a book that I wrote. Women in Wind Band by Aaron Keaton Howard and Megan Wagner. I happen to write a single chapter in that book that's called Defining and Redefining Success. And I'm super, super proud of it because it really talks about a lot of what we're talking about here that everybody's on different paths and finding new and different ways to measure your success so that you feel really well, joyful in what you're doing and satisfaction in what you're doing, even if you haven't reached X their Rd. mark or whatever word you would want to use.
It is interesting. We, we, I think we measure ourselves sometimes against what someone else has done or is doing. And your path may be different than that. And it's difficult to say like, well, I need to be equal to that.
And I did that for a long time. I had to let go of certain things, like, like, my path went this way, this person's path went that way. Yeah, they're different. They're just different paths. And my identity doesn't have to be tied to that thing that maybe I thought I would do, maybe I didn't think I would do. But it's because I was looking at other people for measurement. For defining what that was gonna be rather than myself.
So that's I'm glad you bring that up. That's that's important thing for all of us. Yeah, really.
I think if I, if I just may say this, this in particular falls on women. That's not to diminish the men out there. They definitely deal with it too, but particularly women who want to have a family. They, they many, especially, you know, my generation, I, I felt totally alone when I was having children. I didn't see any other women in our profession having children and working towards being a successful college band director. I'm so glad that has changed. You see it more and more now. But I, you know, I would just say in particular to women, don't, don't feel that you, you have to reach certain milestones at a certain time and, and do what you want to do for yourself and your family and your, and your life aside from, you know, those things that, that you may want to do eventually in your career.
Yeah, thank you. So Emily, now's the time where we switch topics to a couple of standing questions that we ask all of our guests. And I'm going to take the first one. Do you have a soapbox topic? And it can be about anything, music, band, life, whatever.
Oh my God, I think it probably is. Well-being. That's probably my soapbox, soapbox topic. I used to when I, when I taught the like how to be a band and orchestra director class to undergrads, the last class session was always how to stay a happy band director. And it had to do with these exact sorts of things. You know, don't stay in your band room 12 hours a day and only eat cafeteria food like you are. You are going to like your heart is for many, many reasons. It's not going to sustain that lifestyle. Just so just making sure that you're remaining healthy and taking care of yourself so that you can be at your very best for your students. But that's I would say that's a soapbox.
Well, you mentioned a book earlier that you had written a chapter in, but I wouldn't stress that out. Is there a particular book or books that have inspired you in your journey?
Well, I've mentioned twice, I think now in this podcast, Intelligent Music Teaching by Robert Duke. I have definitely read that book cover to cover, I don't know, a dozen times in my career. And every time I read it, I come back to things or, or new items will pop out because I'm at a different place in my career. And I, I, I just think anybody who is a teacher, who teaches teachers, who may one day be a teacher, private students, like anything, there's so much in there about just how to be effective and how to be thoughtful about what you're doing. That's just, that's my Bible, that book.
That's a great book. And then finally, and arguably the most important question of the day. What's your favorite time signature?
Oh, man, OK, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to go out on a limb and say 6/4.
6/4. I think this might be the first, I think that's the first, first time we've heard 6/4 on the on the podcast.
So that is say, why do I have to say why? I think you should. Yes, absolutely.
I, I, I prefer 6 and you know, groups of three. So compound versus simple in, in general, but there's something about 6/4 how it's stretched out. Like you still get that so that you can have that sort of lilty sort of feel, but it's not as compact as 6/8 and it's different than 3/4 because it's just a has a that slightly more elongated usually within a phrase structure. Like maybe the melody itself is like a little bit more elongated.
Well, I think you're nerdy. No, I think, I think I think you're you're absolutely right. And we're gonna we'll give you partial credit. But the right answer was common time.
No. I saw you guys a mile away. I saw that a mile away.
6/4 was the first. That's the first time in Four Seasons, so that's awesome. Of all the people, 6/4 is the first time, so now I'll be curious if we'll ever have another 6/4.
Maybe I would like to. I'd like you to report out on that.
Thank you so much for joining us today.
Gentlemen, this has been so fun. Thank you very much for having me, what an honor.
And that's a wrap on today's episode. Thanks for spending part of your day with us on the Common Time Podcast. If today's conversation gave you something to think about or something to try with your students, we'd love for you to share this episode with a colleague. And you can also follow us on social media for episode clips, behind the scenes content, and updates to our upcoming guests. And if you haven't already, please be sure to subscribe so that you never miss an episode. Until next time, keep making music and keep making a difference.