Welcome to the Common Time Podcast, a show designed to give music educators practical, inspiring ideas for you and your program. Each week we sit down with world class educators, composers, and conductors to talk about teaching, leadership and building programs that thrive without burning yourself out. So whether you're a band, orchestra, or choir director, our goal is simple to help you grow and stay inspired and remember why you fell in love with teaching music in the first place. This is season 4, and we're diving even deeper. More real conversations, more actionable takeaways, and more voices shaping the future of music education. Let's get into the episode. Our guest today is Darren Davis. Welcome, Darren.
Hey, how's everybody doing?
Doing fantastic. We're so happy to have you on. Darren has been with the Broken Arrow Public School since 1993 as the director of bands and now is executive director of Fine Arts. He leads a team of 89 Fine Arts teachers and over 6000 secondary students. So we're excited to talk to him about his experiences and leadership in this program and all the success he's had. John, why don't you get us started?
Thanks, David. Hi, Darren. Always good to see you buddy.
Good to see you too. It's been a while.
It has been, but so I'm just going to dive right in. So being a part of the Broken Arrow Fine Arts community for decades, first with shaping ensembles from the podium, but now guiding every program in the entire district, how has your artistry or your artistic identity evolved through this journey? And then who has influenced your leadership, both leadership style and also as a musical leader?
Wow, those are great questions. And they've really hit core to me transitioning from the podium with thinking of my group, my ensemble, to a much larger lens of a broader range of students from all different disciplines in the Fine Arts. And to put it mildly, we're used to creative teachers that very much have personalities. And managing 89 of them is not the easiest task in the world.
I can't even imagine.
Right. Yeah, that's crazy. You know, over time, I felt like the identity has really changed with what I do with Broken Arrow, not only just the bands, but now with a bigger lens of creating culture, building and staff development. And at the core of all that is creating great experiences for students and student ownership within that. You know, I've learned that it's more important that how we treat people matters just as much as how our students perform. And that is kind of a guiding factor that moves me, you know, with all those creative voices of teachers and all those students that we're fortunate to have a lot of in many different disciplines here at Broken Arrow. And to be a small part of seeing those successes with our performing arts and a broader range — all of our Fine Arts, individual art and speech and debate, theater, band, choir, orchestra — just all different cogs in the wheel that really make our community really special and who it is. And when I took that over a few years ago, it was very much programs that were in silos that were more concerned with their individuality and less about the broader reach to our stakeholders in the community and in our educational realm. So it's really been a task that I've really enjoyed, and hopefully I feel like we're making a difference.
Yeah, I love that. I want to dive into this one first because you mentioned silos, and I was reading a book just recently about breaking down silos in the business world. But I'm curious — you mentioned there were silos and obviously there's been some changes in your culture or something that you've done to break down some of those silos. Could you talk to us a little bit about what that has been like?
Well, it's been about creating camaraderie first off with all the different disciplines of teachers. There was a time where it was, you know, leave me alone, I need to focus on what I need to do with my group and my ensemble. And particularly, we're mindful to band directors — everyone wants our students. They wanted them to be a part of the full orchestra, to maybe play with a show choir, to play in the orchestra pit for the theater performances, the musical theater performances, all the community establishment things that are important to our stakeholders. And at some level, it was easy to be in a silo and go, when can I just focus on band and music education for my band kids? But now that I've moved to a different seat, you see how important those opportunities are. And I think it's really been an education through the teachers that we can be stronger when we work together instead of work against each other.
Yeah, absolutely, and I totally agree. That's something that has begun resonating with me more probably in the last decade of my life and teaching. Like when I was younger, I don't say that I purposefully was siloed, but I was so focused on what I was doing that what someone else was doing seemed irrelevant to me. And looking back, it actually was quite relevant and there were quite a few missed opportunities because I was in my own silo. So I appreciate that you're doing that task and that work with Broken Arrow's groups. Thinking about Broken Arrow nationally — I mean, it carries a national reputation. You've been there, is this about 33, 34 years ish?
Yeah, longer than the Internet.
Yeah, it's been a while. And with that, I would assume comes a unique level of pressure for the teachers and the students. So I'm curious, how do you help everyone stay grounded in the process while still navigating the expectations? And what kind of mindset shift helps them stay balanced in all this high pressure that comes with being Broken Arrow?
You know, that's something that I think music teachers and band directors across America deal with on different levels every single day. Pressure is real, but it doesn't have to be paralyzing. I think you can reframe expectations as opportunities, while grounding the students and teachers into the things that we can control. A national reputation brings pride, but it also brings pressure — there's no doubt. So we openly acknowledge that pressure and don't pretend that it doesn't exist. But I think the mindset had to shift from feeling like we have to live up to something, to we get to pursue something really meaningful together. And I think that kind of mindset shift — when I was in the seat as a band director — totally changed my joy in the job, from feeling like something was beating down on me at all times to something that I felt like we could really make meaningful with students and really be uplifting. That's, you know, over the course of a 30-year career, it was about halfway through where I felt the opposite, and then something — I don't know where that light bulb turned on — but we started to evolve into the mindset that we have now. It's made the job more enjoyable than I could ever possibly imagine.
Right. I love that. Yeah, I was just, as I was hearing you answer that question, I remember working with your band a long time ago when I was living in Norman and I would come out and just watch you teach. And even though there was all this national pressure and the expectations were extraordinarily high, at least outwardly, I never saw it get to you. You have been a role model for me because my own program has its national exposure and high pressure situations and a standard to meet. But I've always looked up to that because it's easy to feel the weight and then be a bad person. So how did you get through that?
That's a really great question, and I'll pause just for a minute just to say that what you see on the outside may not always reflect what's happening on the inside. I get that. I mean, that's a Davis family trait — my father is the king of that, you know, you can't read what's happening on the inside at some level. Love you, Dad. But you know, process and pressure — when groups and people stay focused on the process, the pressure loses its power, because confidence comes from preparation, not expectations. And those opportunities to be influenced by others that I've always admired have really helped, I think, to consistently bring people back to the idea that it's about preparation, it's about the effort, it's about the growth and the process. If that's what's focused on, it seems like the outcomes kind of take care of themselves. You know, the most pressure I think I've ever felt was before two concert performances — leading up to a Midwest Clinic concert performance with my wind ensemble, and leading up to basically turning my ensemble over to nine guest conductors at the ABA, the American Bandmasters Association conference performance. That was a sense of pressure, but it was also a sense of obligation. I wanted to create amazing experiences for those students, and those performances are landmark memories for me. But I'll remember those kids for how hard they worked through those pressures and the process. So I don't know if I really answered the question, but it's something that every one of us deals with at some level.
I'm kind of hearing how you are approaching this from a perspective of building culture — building a culture to be successful and to navigate these challenges. And I would argue that it's this culture that has helped shape the Fine Arts success and how that is respected across the country. So do you have any other values or habits that you've built into that culture over the years that have helped sustain the level of excellence of the Broken Arrow bands that's kind of been around for a long time?
Well, I mean, we know this — culture isn't built in a day, but it can certainly be torn down instantly. It takes long opportunities to build those processes and those expectations. But excellence is something that you don't just turn on for performance. It's something you practice every day through preparation and how you communicate and how you treat people. And those become the guiding things that have really mattered to me — people before programs, feeling like you belong before talent or benchmarks. Kids matter far more, and we have to meet students where they are and then maybe see the best in them when they don't see the best in themselves. That's something to think about as well.
Yeah, that's absolutely true. I love the 'people before' framing — it's something that's been resonating with me for quite a while now. People come first. I want to shift just a little bit — since you're now overseeing so many art teachers across elementary, middle school, and high school, all feeding into one another, I'm assuming that consistency and communication become very essential in this role. So I'm curious, what does great collaboration look like across your campuses, and how do you create these shared musical and educational values that you're talking about?
Well, I think as a teacher who's been in the grind, one of the last things you want are meetings for the sake of meetings. How many times have we finished something like, well, that could have been an email. So time is valuable. But I think in my role, it's been about feeling like all of my teachers are heard, that there's someone in their corner, and that the non-negotiables within our program are seen as being consistent — but not telling teachers how they have to teach. So we create what I guess is a shared vocabulary where we have mutual respect for different teaching styles. The curriculum, the benchmarks, the learner outcomes and expectations — those don't change. But those are tools that allow our teachers to be creative with how they get there. I've never felt like we need to control that we all teach the same way. I think that loses the individuality of the teacher, and then they don't feel supported — they feel like they're part of a machine rather than getting to be their creative selves to inspire their students along the way. So when our teachers feel supported and trusted, that collaboration comes naturally. One of the things I do is simply keep a notes file open on my phone, and every time I'm in a classroom or around the district or on my own and something strikes me, I just add to it. Then I take what I've put down over the last month and put myself in the seat of what's happening for teachers in the next four weeks. I do a monthly check-in with all of our Fine Arts and try to write a document that's not lengthy to read, but it establishes those non-negotiables and the things I think we can do better. But I want them to feel the joy in what their job is and not lose sight of it — because it's a privilege, it's a gift for us to get to teach kids every day and to show them our passion for the Fine Arts. Particularly with music and band, how we can inspire those kids to do something they never thought was possible.
I couldn't agree more with that. And you know, you're talking about student needs, and as you oversee quite a few things in the school district now, you have an advantage of seeing the specific needs that today's learners have across all the Fine Arts disciplines by specific age group. So I'm curious — what has changed about the needs of students from their Fine Arts experience, and do they respond differently now? What do they need now comparative to a decade ago? Where are you seeing these changes and trends?
Well, how many times have we heard since the COVID pandemic that kids are different now and need different skills and need different connections than they ever did before? But it's also shined a bigger light on the experiences the three of us may have had as young musicians. Some of those techniques — they don't work in today's age. So today's students, they want purpose and they want connection with each other. They do respond to authenticity, but not authority. Fine Arts needs to be a place where they belong. Students today are navigating pressures and distractions that are far more numerous now than ever before, but they seem to respond far less to the techniques that we were probably taught with, which was maybe more fear-based motivation. They respond so much more to belonging, to having a voice, to that authentic connection to a teacher. But what hasn't changed from when I was a student to when I started teaching and now is that students still want to belong to something great. They want to belong to something that's meaningful and has relationships. And we can't discount the social aspect of what band and the arts does for students, as much as we need to help them gain those life lessons — hopefully through music and through the skills that we teach. They seem to thrive the most when they feel seen. They want to have a voice and they want to know that their individuality matters. They still respond well in today's age when expectations are clear — that hasn't changed. But excellence and empathy can coexist. So those are just some thoughts. I'm just kind of rambling here, but yeah.
No, those are some really great nuggets in there. You started off with authenticity over authority — man, that should hang on a wall. Like that's a great one to just remind yourself every day when you walk into a classroom — authenticity is going to resonate more. You also talked about belonging, which is something that's been on my mind recently. Students require belonging before risk. If we're going to ask them to take risks, they're not going to do that before they feel a sense of belonging. So it's something to really continue to hone in on. Yeah, it's just a kind of a trust issue, I guess. That kind of leads me to my next question.
Yeah, go. No, go ahead. I was just going to make another point that's something that I've thought about a lot and I mentioned that, you know, just a couple times is, you know, I mean teachers that taught me, they inspired me. They're the reason that I'm into music. But the but some of the processes that were in place when I was a student just would not work today. And you know, we read probably resonated with some of those at some different level. But we're far better teachers now because you know, I can't ever imagine as much as I loved my high school band director and he's the reason I'm in this. I don't think that he ever would have said. How do you think we should turn this phrase here? What are your ideas? I don't think that we would never had collaborative ensemble, concert, band rehearsals like we do now. You know, it is. And I love, I actually love the aspect of how we're shifting toward more collaboration inside the rehearsals and not everybody's there yet, but at the I'm seeing it more and more. But it's, I did an honor band this past weekend and it was very interesting trying to get the kids to also collaborate with themselves to say, OK, I'm hearing something here. I want you to talk to your neighbor for 10 seconds about what you're hearing, and then we're going to discuss that. And it was a little of them looking at me like what you're going to you're asking us to do to tell our neighbors something. And I said, yeah, I want you to tell them something really positive that you're hearing from them. And then what are you hearing that's not working so well. And then let's gravitate to the top three and let's work on those. And it was almost like you're not just going to tell us what you want us to do. Look, not this time. It was very interesting to kind of see their eyes. But after they became more relaxed in that setting, they it was engaging. I think they enjoyed it more than me. Just tell them what to do. So I think it's. Students are evolving too, right? They, they want to have, I think they internalize the experience more when they are invested into their participation, not just from a single artist, but to having a voice that everyone can hear. And that's important, you know, and, and I didn't teach like that when I first started teaching 30 years ago. That's something that has been learned over time.
That's true. That's the same way when I started, I was a carbon copy of my high school band director, like literally a common carpie and common carpie. And it was very different back then. It was much more, I don't want to say it was a dictatorship, but it was kind of like that. And we didn't think he was mean. It's just it was almost more like being in the military. He used to. Often do what we're told. I've often thought about maybe going back to my predecessor style of Ravelli. You know, maybe I should try that approach.
Well, I. Used to say that, you know, some of the experiences I had growing up and maybe when I first started teaching, we would call it the illusion of democracy. Yeah, you know, the ensemble, you know, But it was definitely came down that, you know, in those early days and that early style, you know, it was, it was more about, you know, teach from the podium and not from right. You know, I have those multiple voices in it and we have to be proud of our of our craft and art form that we keep seeing it evolve and to be in that collaborative style. And, and I think it's just going to get stronger. You know, that I'm, I'm so encouraged by young teachers. I see that they're being trained to start at that, that level rather than that being a skill that you've learned as a teacher through experience. So that, you know, great. That's, that's speaks a lot for higher education. What they're doing to prepare teachers to be ready for the real world.
It does, absolutely. So now I'm going to take a complete left turn kind of going back to your position in the Executive Director of Fine Arts. I'm curious how you design growth experience that balance the sort of the high level excellence also with the broad need for equitable access for all students. And I know that's a left turn, but we're kind of we're talking about culture, but we also in today's world kind of talking about how do we reach every student as well. And sometimes in our programs, we have high level expectations and we see some individuals left behind. So I'm just curious how you deal with that in Broken Arrow.
Well, that's really interesting and that's where we are right now, right? High standards and open doors, I don't think have to be opposites that I think excellence can be a pathway, but not the like the gateway to get to. So you know, standards matter and but students are at so many different levels. And so, you know, it has to be important, I think to design opportunities that stretch our most advanced students while they cater to our very emerging students into a, you know, into a new level of proficiency, whether it's, you know, whether skills. But at the core of that is there has to be value in the growth at every level. And that's, that was in my last check in that I do monthly with, with my Fine Arts teachers, because when I sent that, I sent it out December, whatever one, it was, whatever that first Monday was that we came back from, from the Thanksgiving break, which as performing arts teachers, we know it's like it's performance Palooza, right? That's everyone's in the moment of the performances. And so there's a level of stress for the teachers, but it's, but it's an opportunity for us to, to share our, our students and just share their achievements and regardless of level. And so success can, I think can look different for different students. And, and that has to be entirely OK. You know, we're fortunate at, at Broken Arrow that we have in the 10 through 12 campus, there's five concert bands. The, the, the level of success for the top level wind ensemble looks different than it does for the, for the, the 4th band. And it doesn't mean that we teach those bands any differently, but we'll feel like it's an opportunity to meet the students where they're at and to make that access intentional. And where I think by that then excellence becomes sustainable. I know I don't think it's a very good answer, but I feel like that you not every ensemble across America is at the level of the Broken Arrow Wind Ensemble, and that's OK. And students at all different levels of ability and their resources can make musical aesthetic memorable moments that they'll carry with them for a lifetime. You know, I mean, we talked about marching band quite a bit that students will remember how they felt with their peers long after they'll remember what their score was or their placement was at a contest. And that doesn't change when we're inside with the concert ensembles, you know, so build those experiences through music and let the, you know, let the standard, the excellence become the pathway, not, you know, not just the, the, the, the gate or the finish line.
That absolutely resonates. Indeed, you know, so now I'm also going to turn a bit to student leadership and engagement. So be because Broken Arrow as a school district is quite large and then and then also outside of that across the country with all of you work with students both with concert band and marching band. With your experience in seeing the wide varieties of approaches to student leadership and engagement, do you have any recommendations for our listeners of about routines or systems that you've seen that have genuinely empowered students to take responsibility for their learning across the Fine Arts program?
Well, yeah, I, I, I definitely think that there are influences that we've had and there's things that matter to me and what matters to me keeps changing. I've really resonated to the Apple TV, the Apple plus, whatever series that was Ted Lasso, right? I think there's so many leadership lessons that can come through. You know, that series and that show about, you know, be a love the be curious, not judgmental. I mean, that's very much a Ted Lasso ISM, right. So I think some, you know, things that really matter to me is something that I'll, I'll is a line that I steal from my great friend Scott Lang. The more you give, the more you get, the more you give to something, the more value you'll get to that as a leader or part of an ensemble. But the inverse of that is also true that the, the more you get, the more you have to give back to the group that, you know, leadership is not a title or a power. It's a service And students must model the culture or it becomes the culture is diminished by what students allow through integrity through the program. So student leadership works best when it's, I think, related to life and to what the you know are whether can be those life skills. It's probably most effective when you know those systems include. I mean, you have to have clear expectations, you know, give students real responsibility and a chance to succeed or a chance to fail. And then those failures become, you know, teaching moments. They become, you know, moments to having some adult mentorship along the way. So, you know, that's a long winded way to say, you know, I hope that we encourage students to lead by example, to serve their peers and to not be afraid to take ownership. I used to be that teacher that took the mindset of if you want anything done right, you have to do it yourself. And the more that I said some non negotiables with students and with my teachers, I empowered my staff and I gave my students more ownership into the program. And it's when we took an immediate another, you know, kind of rise in what I thought was the overall experience throughout the program. So students feeling trusted. I think is core to all of that.
Yeah, I completely agree with that. So just thinking again about your over 3 decades now with Broken Arrow, you've, we've been talking about students, you've watched multiple generations now of students that have come through the programs. You said before the Internet was the thing. I remember those days, like a lot has changed. So I'm curious now I'm kind of more inspirational here. What continues to drive you? What inspires your work? And when you look ahead to the next Decade oath, not just for a Broken Arrow, but for just music education broadly, what excites you the most?
I think it's, you know, with my transition from director of bands to director of Fine Arts, you know, I think my biggest, what inspires me is to hopefully leave a legacy through people that my, my predecessor is director of bands. Two people before me was, was Tom Stout, you know, a legend here in, in Oklahoma. And he would always say that the, our band programs and it's constant state of construction. We've never, we never feel like we've arrived. We're always looking for that opportunity to grow and get better. And, and I've kind of taken that with a bigger lens through looking at all of our Fine Arts programs. So I'm incredibly optimistic about Fine Arts education and where it's headed, because what still inspires me every day is watching students discover who they are as people. You know, getting those experiences through the humanities is, you know, is our discipline is what allows all the what they call that, you know, would call the core subjects to have something to read and write about. And so as we grow together through recognition, it's, it's that we know that, you know, I have a very supportive Board of Education and the Superintendent that they see the Fine Arts as essential and not extra that, that, you know, that we're always having new ways to connect with students. And I think the, you know, the next decade is going to be about, you know, maintaining our purpose or redefining what it, what the needs are for kids as we meet them in the next decade to be sustainable for our teachers where they're, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm disheartened by the burnout that I see of young teachers, young, very talented teachers that end up leaving the profession. And as a Fine Arts director, I want our teachers to feel valued and to feel like this is a place that they can't wait to go to work, that, you know, they have purpose and, you know, keeping the heart of the work front and center. You know, I was trying to think of a quote that I put in that last newsletter that I sent out to, to our Fine Arts teachers, but it went something like, you know, at its best, the Fine Arts education isn't just about what students perform. It's about who they become through the process. And, you know, and that's what inspires me to come to work every day. And I have these new opportunities because, you know, to, I'll be honest in, in, in my administrative role now you know, it, I'm let on the podium less now than ever. I get to come as a guest every now and then. And do, you know, some concert cycles and I get to opportunity to work with a lot of teachers, But I don't want to lose that opportunity. That makes me feel creative and allows me to, to, to, to share my, my artistic approach with students. And so I've got some things that are happening in the future that are we're going to, I think, you know, rekindle and like burnt, let the fire. It's not out at all. It's just I feel like it's going to burn even stronger as I get some opportunities to not just help teachers and programs in Broken Arrow, but maybe, you know, have a broader reach with other programs. It's America.
Yeah, I saw you post something recently that you just launched. I'm happy to let you plug that if you want to plug it here. I know it sounds like an incredible opportunity for educators out there. So tell us about it.
Well, I, I, it's something that I've been thinking about for a long time and has been in the process for quite some time. But I just launched the, the 1st of December, first week of December. So here recently what I is called Davis Signature Arts, which is an LLC. And you can see us on social media at Davis Signature Arts and on the web at davissignaturearts.com. And it's opportunities to allow teachers to feel supported, to inspire students and to strengthen the base of programs is kind of what our mission is. And I think that there's that's a broad reach to, you know, to share a lot of what we've talked about here over the last, you know, hour or so. That is really important to me.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, if you're out there, look that up, take a look and get signed up. It would be great. So all right, Darren, now's the time of the interview where we transition to asking all of our guests a couple questions and I'll take the first one. Do you have a soapbox topic?
Soapbox topic How? How fundamental do you want this to be?
Whatever box, whatever you're thinking. It can be anything you want. It's wide open. We've seen it go the far left, far right, so whatever you like.
Music's not about notes and rhythms, it's about shaping phrases. And regardless of the level of the performer, students can have a phrase direction. So make our ARP as we get ready for performances. Don't talk so much about the what and the how, but the why. Why does a phrase move this way? And let students, whether they're beginners or high school seniors, let them make music.
Right, the why is important. Sometimes we, I think we get caught up in the weeds, you know, as teachers and like trying to check those boxes and we forget to even talk about the why. So I think that's a perfect soapbox. So thank you for sharing that. I take the next one. Is there a particular book or books that you that have resonated or inspired you in your journey? Don't have to be musical, just things that you could share with our listeners they might enjoy as well.
Well. This will sound like a big retro is the Joy of Inspired Teaching by Tim Watts and Heiser. You know, I, I know Tim so well and I know that there's fewer leadership clinics ahead of him than or what behind him. And so I'm very nostalgic and I just reread that the joy of inspired teaching by Tim. And it, it's kind of helped ground me on more of the those same things that you're just talking about, David, the whys of what we do rather than getting it into the weeds. So, yeah, go check that one out.
That's an perfect beauty. Yeah, honestly, if you haven't read that or you haven't read it recently, it is worth reading again. It's a good reminder. I think that's a book you should read like every four or five years just to be like, OK. You know, and, and for anybody listening, we interviewed Tim Watson Heiser at the beginning of season 3. Should. Yeah, everyone should go back and check out that conversation. It was incredibly inspiring for sure.
Yeah. I love talking to him every time. I love being around him every time you get to see. Him.
All right, so I'll take the final question and arguably Darren, the most important. So what's your favorite time signature?
Take carefully. So I'll be judged on this, correct?
Yeah, there is. There is a right and a wrong here.
Who doesn't love a good flow of a piece in 7-8?
That's a very popular one. Clear winner. It's a popular one. It is a very popular So our first episode ever was with Jerry Junkin and that was Jerry's. Jerry was 78 and then from that point forward, I bet we, I bet if we went back and looked, it's 90% of our guests.
We shouldn't measure this, we should talk to the producers. About yeah we should start having like it now like a competition a meter so well and Jerry.
I've tried to follow in the footsteps of Jerry Junkins, so if I've made you commit that Jerry did, I'll take that as a win.
You're in alignment on 7/8, so unfortunately both you and Jerry were wrong. The answer is common time. That's just between us.
So Darren, thank you so much for being on with us today that this has been a great conversation. Lots of wonderful insights that I'm really looking forward to getting out there for, for our listeners. And like your insights over 3 1/2 decades or so are, I think that's immeasurable. It's hard to, it's absolutely, it's hard some to think about like the all the changes that have happened in life as a teacher and you've been able to encapsulate those so beautifully for us today. So I really appreciate you being with us.
I respect both of you so much. And I've known John for a long time and David, we've our, our, our paths keep crossing all the time with each other. You know that. We got a chance to visit today. It was good seeing you.
We're going to, I think we'll just call it a day. Wrap it up, Darren. Thank you so much.
And that's a wrap on today's episode. Thanks for spending part of your day with us on the Common Time Podcast. If today's conversation gave you something to think about or something to try with your students, we'd love for you to share this episode with a colleague. And you can also follow us on social media for episode clips, behind the scenes content and updates to our upcoming guests and. If you haven't already. Please be sure to subscribe so that you never miss an episode. Until next time, keep making music and keep making a difference.