Amanda Drinkwater

Welcome to the Common Time Podcast, a show designed to give music educators practical, inspiring ideas for you and your program. Each week we sit down with world class educators, composers, and conductors to talk about teaching, leadership and building programs that thrive without burning yourself out. So whether you're a band, orchestra, or choir director, our goal is simple to help you grow and stay inspired and remember why you fell in love with teaching music in the first place. This is season 4, and we're diving even deeper. More real conversations, more actionable takeaways and more voices shaping the future of music education. Let's get into the episode. Our guest today is Amanda Drinkwater. Welcome, Amanda.

Hi there.

So Amanda is Director of Fine Arts for the Lewisville Independent School District in Lewisville, TX, having previously taught at Leander High School, The Colony and Marcus High Schools. And today I'm excited to dive into the ins and outs of running a highly successful band program. John, why don't you get us started?

Thanks, David. Hi, Amanda. It's always good to see you.

You too, guys.

So I say this all over the country and I mean it sincerely. You are the best high school band director that has ever, ever taught in the school district, I mean, anywhere. And that obviously you aren't going to say that, but for anybody listening, this is true. And part of the reason why we are asking you here is because we just want to hear your insights about how to do this. And so as you look back through your career in the schools, even though now you oversee it from an administrative perspective, your products that have been produced from Leander, The Colony, Marcus High Schools, what foundations mattered most when you build a program that has truly thrived and just been unbelievably successful?

John, thank you so much for that very kind and superfluous introduction. I'm speechless and no response to all of that, but I so appreciate the chance to talk about program efficacy and thriving programs because they're what makes us go, right. I mean, we are threatened by anything that's happening around us that's got an artificial component to it. We have so many professions that are in danger of becoming obsolete in the next few years, and teaching can't be one of them. It's not one of them because the relationship building is so integral to that teacher and learner relationship. And there is no learning that really takes place without the caring that you get from being in the room with a teacher. So I'm so worried and at the same time so confident in our future because I know nothing will compare to you and David being on the podium with the baton and the score and the kids being in that room. That's such a visceral and real thing. And those relationships are so very important. So I would just start with that — the relationships with the students, the relationship between the staff, the relationship between the students — all of that has got to be there when you're trying to get somewhere that's great or even trying to get somewhere that's OK. You've got to be OK with the people around you and develop trusting and lasting relationships that will help everybody thrive themselves before you can grow as an ensemble.

Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. The idea of building relationships is so foundational for long term success for sure. When you think about day-to-day leadership on a high school campus, I'm curious what habits or systems you think make the biggest difference for you, or even the directors that you're overseeing now.

Greeting students at the door — and maybe that's greeting students at the front of the room — having that welcoming feeling when you walk in, that this is an elevated environment of learning and music making and friendship. If it doesn't feel like a sanctuary when you walk in, you're not going to get the most out of the students. They will not trust. They'll be afraid to make a mistake, or they'll be afraid to make the director mad, and on and on and on. So having that sense that you're walking in with friends and with people who want the best for you. I don't go into a classroom that's great without seeing that kind of an environment. I see very good classrooms where there's much information being given, where it feels like the room is filled with the conductor, filled with the person in the front of the room. And those programs tend to have a ceiling, right? I know you guys know that too, that there is a ceiling to compliant ensembles. There's a ceiling to groups that feel like they have to play to the satisfaction of the conductor, the satisfaction of the director, or else — in my experience, there is no environment that has ego from the leader that is also achieving great artistry, great levels of excellence in playing and music making.

Yeah, that's so very true. You know, it almost in a way sounds like culture, right. And I think that culture doesn't happen by accident. So how did you specifically build student ownership intentionally, with pride and accountability — but at the essence, how did you build the culture that you established in your classrooms?

Probably the same way both of you did. I mean, as you both know, the culture cannot come from the leader, from the teacher — it has to come from within the ensemble, right? So no matter how hard you try, you can make a difference in a year or two years or three years and really move the ball pretty slowly. But all it really takes is one great student leader, one section leader, one drum major to shift the culture in a few days. If someone within the ensemble — if Fernando Mendoza shows up and decides to change the culture, you can really change it pretty quickly, right, as we've seen on national TV this year. But culture changes from the top only are less effective. They're less authentic. They take a little bit longer. And then again, you get into that where the students are doing what they're doing because they're complying. So the students have to be willing to — and I think even driven to, I think I would use that word — they have to be driven to what they want to see in their own organization. So I know you've heard me tell this story before, John, but without naming which of the groups it is, although some people have heard me tell this story — there was a program that I served that had a pretty strained culture when I arrived, especially about the work ethic, the feeling from the students, the commitment to ensemble efficacy, and their listening skills were very poor. They would want to start rehearsal at the beginning of every marching band day that we had in the preseason by basically sitting in the back of their trucks and playing, I don't know, country music or whatever they wanted to play. And they would sit in the back of the trucks until the drum majors went and blew their whistles at everybody. And these little drill majors would run around — they had a dog whistle — and they would go to the middle of the field, blow the whistle, and run around, and it'd take about 20 minutes to get everybody on the field. And then the rehearsal started. And I sort of walked into this and thought, OK, we're blowing whistles at kids to get them to do things. And don't they want to practice? Do they know we have a football game in three weeks? So I just thought, OK, what are we going to do? How are we going to impact this? Because I knew very well, being new there, that I certainly couldn't say, hey guys, this is inappropriate. I don't like what you're doing. Your music taste is bad and you don't want to rehearse — I couldn't say all of those things. And so I just waited until that rehearsal was over and pulled the drum majors and said, tell me about the whistling and all of this. And they said, well, if we don't do that, the band won't know when to start rehearsal. And I said, I think the band will know — they do have watches and clocks in the car, and I think they'll be OK. I said, tomorrow we're just not going to blow the whistles. And they all looked at each other, very concerned about starting rehearsal. And I pulled the seniors at the end of that day and I said, hey, I'm just letting you know so you can expect it tomorrow — we're not going to blow any whistles to start rehearsal. I said, we'll start whenever you guys want. I'll be here at 7. I'll see you guys sometime around then whenever you'd like to start. Just get on the field when you want to start. And so the next day — I won't go into too much of this — but it took about 18 minutes for the kids to kind of realize that there weren't going to be any whistles blown. And some of the seniors kind of got on the bandwagon, like they were, hey guys, let's kind of mosey on out there without losing our cool image with the rest of the band. And slowly but surely everybody kind of came out. But after they got out there — I was sitting on the tower, by the way, with a newspaper, reading the newspaper, just waiting — and after they got out there, I turned on the mic and I said, hey, good morning. It's good to see you guys. Let's get started. And there was kind of a hush over the group, and you can imagine why, just because I think they felt like, rut-roh, this is not exactly what I thought I was going to get with the new lady. But that's how it went. And then the next day we started about 7:03, so we went from dog whistles and 20 minutes late to 3 minutes late. And then we never started a rehearsal after that without everybody on the field and everybody present and ready to go before the downbeat. So that's one story, but there are many out there.

There's a time I remember when the two of us were teaching together. And even at Marcus, you never raise your voice ever in the rehearsal setting. I mean, not even to get people's attention. I have never seen you do that. And it's because of the expectations that you put for the students to understand the environment, the culture, the expectations — all of that has always stuck in my mind. I mean, you would raise your hand, I think, right? Wasn't that — do I remember that? But you never ever raised your voice. And I just remember that.

I think first and foremost, no one wants to hear anyone raise their voice in a setting where learning is taking place — not unless it's an exuberance or, you know, good for you, or something like that. I think that's a perception that was left decades ago, that you have to be strong in vocal timbre or vocal content to get the attention of the group. It's just kind of an old school way of thinking about it or doing it. And I certainly knew that I didn't want to be yelled at in drum corps or high school band or college band — I would not want someone to yell at me. Maybe if there was a discipline problem, I would like to see somebody get spoken to with a little bit of vim and vigor. But in terms of the instructional piece, why would we ever want to hear that delivered in that way? And secondarily, no one's voice really sounds very good doing that. Very few people can get away with that kind of timbre with a group without scaring kids. And so it just didn't seem necessary or desirable to have yelling in the environment. But there were a couple of times I've raised my voice — but that's for another day and another story.

I think we've all done that once in a while. I agree, John, though — I've watched you teach, and sometimes you have to lean in to hear what you're saying, but I think it's purposeful. It seems like the students are so engaged, they're hanging on every word. There are approaches to teaching that are the complete opposite of that. So it's something I've always thought was sort of unique to seeing you teach. So I want to ask specifically about the idea of an effective rehearsal in your program. How does that look — how did it look for you? And how did you balance the ideas of musical growth with the relationship building that we just mentioned, and student well-being, all together, while also having to put together a very high level product on the field or in a concert hall?

Well, this is an ironic thing to talk about, since I have dogs barking incessantly in the background. But the musical environment is best served on a canvas of silence, right? If there's noise in the room, it's much more difficult to ask a freshman or a sophomore to really listen to the third trumpet player sitting two chairs away from him. It's much more difficult to ask for an elevated attention to pitch, or to have the kids listen — OK, do you hear where the snare drum comes in at beat three? You guys are a little behind that. Let's breathe in time before that entrance and really listen to it and get your sound inside of that so the eighth notes are together. If all of that's not taking place on a canvas of silence, then it's hard to get more out of them. So it's not a pet peeve — it's just a desire to want it to be quiet. And when the kids are along that journey with the conductor, it's a beautiful thing. So sharing the beauty of silence with the students, and encouraging them to listen to the ambient sounds in the room — that can just be, instead of, you know, line it back up and get out of here and come back in and be quiet — at the beginning of the year, when you're setting the standards, you don't have demonstrations. If Sally in the clarinet section lets her binder slap to the floor, have her do it again — have her demonstrate it again in a very kind way — and just say, OK, let's talk about mutes and getting mutes into place, and what that feels like. That's a sound you can make or not make. One of my favorites is the necessity to blow spit out of the horn instead of letting gravity do its work, right — we've got to put everything down and let that whole sound emanate through the room. So again, when you do this at the outset, in the first quarter, the first eighth of the school year, it can really make a difference in your rehearsals the rest of the year. You don't want to be trying to teach that when you're making an honor band recording in May. It's just part of preserving the sanctity of the rehearsal and creating that sanctuary for sound and for artistry in the room. The kids should know what the pitch is of the school bell so that they listen to it in a different way. In our case at Marcus, it was a very sharp B natural — so that was lovely. Every day the trumpet kids would try to match it as the day was ending. And again, then they get sensitized to it. You'll see section leaders getting annoyed when somebody shuts their slot door too loud or sets their case down or anything like that. And then of course it makes the performances seem extra special when the kids have that awareness of how everything is connected to that canvas of silence.

I love how you connected this to having them recreate that sound and listen to the disturbance and let that sink in. I never even thought about doing that. That's really genius. Making the kid feel good about it too — it's like, no, it's OK, we all need to learn this. So thank you for doing that. But you know, let's go ahead and do it again.

And yeah, it's quite a sound, isn't it? Or if you've got your tonal energy or whatever running in the room, you're like, wow, look at that number of decibels. Thank you for teaching us about that today. So everybody got that.

I love it because it's turning a negative into a positive in a way that is informing the culture at the same time as building a positive habit. There are so many good things about that moment. And I don't think — I mean, I'm not a young teacher — that's the first time I've actually heard someone say that out loud. So that's fantastic. Go ahead, John. Please, please, please.

Sophomore boys only move stands one way, which is to drag them on the ground. That's what that's their job. In fact, I think they have that listed on their job description.

Yeah, so — for anybody listening, I think it's important to understand the message that is underlying all of this.

Expectations are critical and you have to have really high expectations and the students need to meet those. But how they do that is exactly what you're talking about, right, Amanda? Like you've you, you have a very clear set of expectations about everything. Now you're going to teach the students in a very positive, engaging, empathetic, compassionate way. But your standards are not going to bend at all. Am I right in that?

Yes. And I think that's that's a reflection of how you how you teach as well, John, for sure. Very luckily you as well, David. I, I think master teachers, when you see a master teacher in a room, it, it feels like an invitation, right. You know, no one ever felt oppressed by Professor Reynolds gestures or comments. They felt invited to the party to make music. And so much was said without being said in, in the facial interaction, in the gestural quality and the expectations. It's just it, it, I think the more you can pull the kids into the the musicians into the room and fill the room less and less with your voice or your actions, the more you'll get out of the students. And that goes for 6th graders and 13th graders and everything in between.

Absolutely. So every strong program faces challenge as well. All programs face face challenge and, and I would argue especially now, right? And that can be staffing, scheduling, motivation, enrollment, I mean all the things. So just from your experience, what obstacles tested you the most and how did you learn to navigate through them?

That's such a great question, John. I think I would let I would let the interpersonal challenges of a student really get to me. That was hardest. If you know that that knock that you get on the door in July. Hey, can I talk to you? And you know what that means, You know that it's a student that wants to disengage from the program or that's going to come talk to you about going in a different direction or doesn't have the fire or all the things that you hear. They don't want to major in music. And so the program's not really serving them in the way they wanted. They didn't get the section leader role and they didn't say anything at the time, but now they're really thinking about it. So I think, you know, many sleepless nights are dedicated to those students that you you wanted to keep, you wanted to keep as a part of your life, not just as a number you know or a dot on the field, but rather you wanted to think that you were offering something that they would find as invaluable as you find it. And that's not always the case. So those are the hardest days. I think back to losing kids out out of the program and or, you know, having them share those things with you or wanting to leave or, or not feeling like they're getting something out of it. So I think that's hard. Everything else pales to that. You know, to me, the, the outside noise and the, you know, all of the pressures that we have around us. And I know that's very discouraging right now. It's, it's very hard in the post COVID era and I that's going to be like a, a marker for the rest of our lives, right? That was a historical event that we're still, we, we talk about recovery, but we're just different. We're not going to recover from it because we're a different society now. It's, it's not, it's not going to be the way that it was before. Security wise. We're a different society. You know, when I was teaching, if it were a nice day outside, we would open the band hall door and let chamber ensembles go outside and, you know, play and take a metronome and enjoy the sunlight. And, you know, now there's very strict protocols and there's ID badges and keyless entries and security cameras and everybody has to go through the front. It's a much more safe and secure environment that we have. But there's a loss of innocence, right? There's that that loss of having that sense of just we're safe here when you can't open the door. So it's a different if it's a different world we're all living with. But I think everything else is insert like that's insurmountable that we we can't change ourselves. We just have to keep trying. You know, that we not give up if there's a scheduling problem, that we not give up if there's a staffing problem, that we, in the words of Bobby Floyd at his retirement speech of Team EA, keep our heads down and teach, you know, because that again, that's the thing that will get us through the next chapter of our lives and education. Again, just kind of recurring theme there that that there's nothing that can take place of that interaction from podium to student in real life, You know, nothing to replace that.

As a follow up, because we have many people listening that come from smaller school districts that are are struggling with both advocacy and funding. And now as an administrator, do you have any advice for them about how to engage with making people know the irrelevancy of their program or why it shouldn't be cut for pick your thing? I mean, do you have any, any thoughts on that?

Just that they, they cannot given, you know, the you can't throw in the towel and you have to use every mechanism in your power to influence those decision makers that will, you know, determine what what happens next. And I would also say that I no one was more shocked to hear from Gene Pocorny at a clinic that he gave that, that he was in a very tiny program in Arizona, that there were 22 kids in his high school band. And, you know, he rode rode a bicycle back and forth to the band hall with a tuba, you know, and that, and then he talked about how the quality was very poor. Obviously the instrumentation wasn't even a full, you know, full concert band. And, and I asked him, you know, what kept you going? And he said it was always the promise of being great. You know, it was the promise that the next day would be better or that we would, you know, be able to perform XYZ for him. It was the the idea of the craft having the potential to be better. And I think that lives with the teacher, right? The teacher is the one that can say with all 13 students or with all 21 students and any kind of setting that we think they can share with the students the joy and hope that tomorrow can sound better. You know, you just by looking at the kid with the, you know, worse sound in the group and just saying, you know what, all those ES were a little less sharp today. That's progress, buddy. Thanks for the fist bump and you know, and just move on. So the the promise of progress, the promise of joy in music making, the promise of that relationship being safer and more fun and more enjoyable. Just I know that sounds very kind of maybe over optimistic about someone who's dealing with very serious things, but positivity emanating from the leader is always a good idea when you're under fire. So the, in a, in an age of, you know, fist raising and scorched earth handling of interpersonal things, just sharing positivity and building relationships and taking that to whatever level you need to. And then I, I, I'd be remiss not to say that you, you have to be good at your craft. You know, there is a much greater chance of your program thriving and surviving if the students are thriving, of course. And I think that was one of the first questions. But, you know, your students should be the best academics in the building. Your students should hold the door open for teachers. Your students should help, you know, get teachers out of the parking lot when there's ice. Your students should pick up the trash in the front of the building where they don't go. Culture is something that we can share because we have, you know, lots of kids or comparatively lots of kids to some of the other programs on campus. So if we want to be an indelible part of the fabric of the tapestry of that of that campus, we've got to be more than just, you know, down in our cave topping scores and, you know, grumbling about.

Yeah, it's just so interesting. I was reflecting on, it's been a long time since all three of us have seen each other and talk to each other. And I was reflecting on, I mean, the success of your programs are are well known. I mean, I've heard them, I've watched, I've judged them. I think the last time I saw your group was a marching bank. It was state marching bank contest here in Texas. And I don't remember the year 10 or 12 years ago, but you did a an all Bach show. I think it was all Bach and I, I, I was judging music in the box and I, I didn't, I didn't write anything. I just listened to the show for 10 minutes and at the end I, I mean, I just thanked you for what I had just experienced. I remember a chord specifically, I think you had piccolo trumpets on the field. Like I, maybe I'm making that up, but it sounded like it, there was a chord with such clarity that was in this is in the Dome. So like, you would just hear this chord, but it would resonate and you could hear every from low to high. Probably if there were no piccolo trumpets. There was something that sounded like it in my ear. Oh my God, how is this possible with students? How are they achieving this at such a high level? On the tape, I literally said thank you. I appreciate what all of you have given me today. But I say that to say that doesn't happen by accident. You don't fall into that. Like being good at your craft and then creating a culture where all of those things kind of come together are so important. So I'm curious, how did you think about or how do you still think about sort of a long term planning for your students, not just the concert in March and band, but sort of developing students as musicians, but also as students across, you know, a four year time since you're generally seeing these students for that length of time.

Yes, that's a great question and I think maybe I'll answer it in this way. I think the group was competitively successful before they knew how to load the trucks. They were getting, you know, attentive to details musically and attentive to details visually without necessarily getting the attention to detail in the other areas of the program at the same level. And I don't think it was the I, I don't think they were crafty enough to be concerned about the competitive outcome. It's just that that part interested them more, you know, So I will, this really sticks in my mind. And I've, I've told this story in public before, but the very first time that group earned ABOA Regional championship, you know, you're in this moment and you're wanting to celebrate. And, and it was very surprising, of course, it was not certainly not anything anybody expected. And I had realized just before finals that retreat rather, that we hadn't talked about retreat. I was like, oh God, we, we don't really talk about how to do retreat. And so I was, you know, people were coming up and I was very, very distracted because all I could do was think about how, you know, what I was seeing in retreat that I hadn't addressed it. And I didn't see enough students addressing it. I thought we were far enough along that at least the, you know, the, the leadership within could have impacted it and kind of gotten it settled because they were just doing things like, you know, I mean, they were elbowing each other and faces and whatever. And it was just undignified relative to their peers. And I, I felt just that that whole night. I went home, we drove home and I felt nothing about the, you know, outcome of the contest because all I could think about is I, I didn't, you know, I didn't teach them or share with them how they should be in that moment. And so after they said break ranks and take the field, the tuba section went on the 50 and laid down in their uniforms and there was somebody doing a snow Angel. And so they all started doing a snow Angel. And I was walking around with the home alone face going, please get up, please, please do not lay on the ground. And you're, you know, so I was mortified in the shadows of all of that in the days to come. And, and I didn't, it wasn't the students fault, you know, they had, we had never talked about how to channel that or appreciate it or realize like those things showed that they after they made those announcements that they did not have sensitivity or empathy or any awareness of, you know, that moment of becoming a leader, whether you liked it or not, and going to your buddy and shaking their hands and all of those things. And so it was a personal lapse, you know, a really, really big one because I had not anticipated it, but it made me realize all the way home it was like, wow, we are so young, you know, and it wasn't that the band was young. We are so young in our leadership culture that when something happens that's unexpected, they don't know how to apply, you know, the things that we've done in other areas. So I, that's not an exact answer to your question, but what I would say is it, it does take time for it to infiltrate. And once there's a, a, a mass of student, once the majority of the students are have an understanding of the identity in the culture of the group, then it then it sort of just spreads exponentially to everybody everywhere. And then at that point in time, it's basically like all of your leaders are assistant directors, even at the middle school level, you know, and an eighth grader has great power to show the rest of the section how to be by how they are and by saying something to another student kindly and in the slot room that they don't have to say to anybody else. But again, there's that critical mass that once you get past that, past that point of having everybody pulling in the same direction, then they then they do it themselves. And so over time, it it just developed into something. What when I thought it was really thriving is when there was so much less that had to be said. It could just be eye contact, you know, especially musically, you know, looking at a student who was in the second band and they would just, you know, yeah, that was me. Or you'd look over there and maybe the second beat was supposed to be touching the third beat and they played it lifted and you heard it to the left and they would just acknowledge you wouldn't even have to say anything out loud. That to me was the ultimate thriving culture that we're seeking is having that collaboration. It's like, Oh my gosh, the student self assessed. They gave you that acknowledgement. They picked up the pencil. They, you know, said the water bottle down silently that that you didn't have to direct it. So the less directing there is, the more successful the program is, if that. That's sounds strange, but.

Could you offer a it makes total sense to me, but I'm envisioning sort of like your trajectory and how things evolved over time. Even watching your groups for someone that's listening, that doesn't even like they're listening. Well, I wish I had that culture. I wish I, my students rose their hand and you know, when they made a mistake. Do you have some advice, maybe some steps to help get them started thinking in that direction and just something to help kind of propel that, you know that mindset?

This is so old school, but just record your rehearsal, set up the iPad from the back of the room and it it's the terrifying thing, right? It's the thing that we had to do in undergraduate conducting and you know, watch and listen to ourselves, which is always just a super terrifying thing to do. But you awareness has to precede everything else. You know, if you're not, if the students are not emanating what you want to see from them or they don't sound the way that you want them to sound. It's so important that you take ownership first and foremost because whatever's happening in your band hall is because you want it to happen or you allow it to happen. One of those two things. And so, you know, setting that up, as painful it is, is and then watching it and, you know, listening to the commentary, the tambour, watching how the beginning of class unfolds, you know, the way we take attendance in the ensemble class matters. The way that we do everything matters. And so if there are portions of the rehearsal that seem perfunctory and, or that seem clunky and, or that seem that they don't belong in a musical environment, you know, try to minimize those things. If you hear comments coming from your mouth that don't sound helpful, those need would need to be eliminated. You know, anything that we say to a student that made no difference or that, you know, was just more for the sound of our hearing, the sound of our voice than anything else, we, we would need to just eliminate it completely. And, and listen for and look for frequency of helpful comments, frequency of directives, frequency of things that you tolerated that you didn't respond to. How are your ears working? You know, you may be over here in the saxes the whole time because you got Johnny kind of screwing around over there. And so you hear everything that they're doing. And in the meantime, the French horns are, you know, building a vegetable garden over there and you don't even know it because you're focused on this kid that's in front of you. So I would always recommend that our teachers, our student teachers and whatnot would record from the back and then this side and then that side. And I, it never failed to shock me. Whenever I recorded myself from the left side, for some reason, my natural instinct was sort of to listen this way and respond, maybe more so this way. And then when I would record from this side, you know, it was shocking constantly that I had not really honed in on something. So there's, yeah, there's, there's that. I I would self-assessment.

Yeah, I think that's wonderful. And the question that you you had there was is what's happening, what I want or what I'm allowing. I think if every one of us ask that on a daily basis, that will help us self assess and reflect and then make those choices. So I love that. You know, and it's also important too for anybody listening, this is going to take time. Like it isn't just going to happen overnight, but if you don't have a plan, it's not going to happen at all, right? Or it's going to be so inconsistent. Or, or such a plan for everything. And like she mentioned, like you need to have a system for literally every single thing. I, we've heard that from other people as well. And it's just, if you can let that sink in. It takes time to build those systems, but they're so worthwhile when you're linking it thinking about that culture that you're describing and that has led to the success of your ensembles on such a high level. So I the systems that makes a huge difference, you know, and even seeing it continue. So my niece is currently in the Marcus High School band and she plays bass trombone and it is so exciting to hear her. She loves it and she comes home and talks about the teacher there and all the staff and just but it isn't about the teachers. It's about the student leadership, the process that was built, the culture that's there, the love of music, the love of process. Like she loves the process. And I think part of it because she kind of knows what to expect. And I think that that's a critical piece for all students, any level from elementary school students to college students. If they have an idea of what to expect, how to expect it, it takes away some stress and anxiety and they're able to focus on the tasks at hand, right. But her eyes light up when we talk about the Marcus Band and I just love that so much for obvious reasons, because, you know, band directors and I obviously consider you a dear friend, master teacher. You know, it's just the whole thing is awesome, but the system works. So for anybody listening, it is possible, but you have to start and you have to have a clear plan. I mean, I think that that's pretty obvious, but I just want to make sure that everyone kind of thinks about that. But so my question, Amanda, is now that you've seen programs from a bit of a wider lens as an administrator, what do you think high schools or high school directors underestimate the most? Could be about influence on students and culture or their role in the community or their craft or anything. So do you have any thoughts on that?

Yes, very much so because we have such a diverse setting in our district. You know, there are almost every type of community culture that you can imagine in North America is within our district. It's a very large district with five feeder patterns in it. And so I would say the thing that seems like it's the most underestimated component is how much the kid brings to the table from home. You know, that's something that I mean, we look at each other and we go, well, of course they do. Of course everybody brings what they have from home. But a teacher, you know, you're going through undergraduate music education, you never talk about the fact that, OK, you might have students that can't afford these reeds. And so when you tell, we're going to tell you what the list of things, you know, we're going to tell you the great list of instruments, we're going to tell you the great list of reeds, we're going to tell you the great thing to do in sectionals. What if the kids can't get to sectionals? What do you do if you're in front of a group that you only get in class and you don't have the opportunity to teach them? Or what if you have a culture where parents pull their kids out at will because they have the means to go to Vail when there's a sale on plane tickets. And so we have those extremes and we don't often think about that. We talk about braces, we talk about what kind of equipment that they need and whatnot. But there is, you know, the whole child development. You know, most of what they're bringing is what they're getting at home. And so that education of and welcoming of the families into what it is to be a part of a music ensemble, a band program, choir program, orchestra program has to be something that you are communicating beyond just the kids that you have. You're communicating that in the community. You're communicating that on campus upward to administration. You know, talk about David's question earlier. It is an all-encompassing thing. And I think I was foolishly under the impression early in my career that advocacy was the responsibility of the Fine Arts office. You know, I always thought, well, that's, you know, I don't need to worry about XYZ because that's our Fine Arts director's job to advocate for our programs. And in a certain way, yes, there are meetings at which there are schedules discussed and course credits and electives and all those things. And not everybody can be at those meetings. But there's no greater point of advocacy than to take about 13 kids and go play at the YMCA at the grand opening of the new swimming pool or to go down during the principal's birthday and have a few kids that can kind of get their way through it and make them feel good or play at the pep rally. Those are the things that people from the outside see as important. At a football game, John, you know this better than anybody. If the national anthem isn't what it's supposed to be, if that doesn't sound great and feel like it should feel, almost nothing else matters to a good portion of listeners at that stadium or on TV. And so it really doesn't matter all the hoo-ha that we're doing at the halftime if we can't get those ceremonial things to be perceived as greatness by the people that are invested, by the stakeholders. So I think I've answered that around about, but it's what the kids, you know, that they are not ready for and they only have their home experience, which if they're in music yet, usually that was a supportive experience.

I've been working on some research initiative around advocacy, and it's very interesting to me. I'm glad that you brought this in because I really appreciate the idea that music advocacy isn't just what happens at the highest level and how we connect. I said something as a high school director — I thought I've been teaching like college was year 5, and high school was one to five. So as a high school director, I'd never even thought about the idea of musical advocacy as a director or even going down to middle schools. It just wasn't on my mind. Coming out as a music educator, I didn't think about how advocacy is such a huge component. And this goes all the way up to every nonprofit arts organization in the world right now struggling for advocacy. And we as music teachers, we are teaching our students, but we also have this responsibility, if we take it, to advocate for music and to create those opportunities like playing at a rest home or somewhere that you're adding value to the community. I think that's something I wish I saw more of honestly. It just adds so much depth in terms of building out the full student, not just the musical part, but the idea of them being empathetic and helping and giving back. It's something that's been on my mind. So I'm appreciative that you brought that into the conversation. I do want to kind of, as we're wrapping up, I'd like to — you've had significant success and we know that, but you mentioned earlier, and John has as well, it takes time. All of these things take time. I'm curious for directors that are out there that want to elevate their programs, but at the same time they have all these other things on their plate. They're trying to spin all the plates like directors do. Do you have practical advice to offer? You spun the plates as well and obviously achieved high success. How did you do it? What advice can you offer to, I guess, affirm that they can do it?

I have to give all credit to a great team. You know, I'm very fortunate to have been in a place where we were staffed for success. That is very commonplace down here in Texas. I think that's no secret. We were scheduled for success. And you know, the amount of time that our middle schools see students — they see them every day. At the high school level we see them every day. In our particular district we're in a double block schedule, so we have 90 minutes a day. So those two formulas, when you talk about that, it is difficult to say to everyone else in the world you can do it when they may see their middle school students twice a week. And so there is — I think just starting with that disclaimer that it doesn't get any better than having a great team and having the time to really focus on this. There's no replacement for those two things. However, I grew up in a high school band program that was in little Thibodaux, Louisiana, and was brought to love this great profession and our vocation and the craft because of a passionate band director who saw fit to give his all to this ragtag group of kids in the middle of nowhere. And I think it was his love of the craft, his love of music, his inspiration, his high expectations of us. He was funny, he was endearing. He loved music. He exuded empathy. He created sanctuary. So all of the things that we've sort of talked about today and that you guys visit with people about all the time on these podcasts enabled that to be a very special place. It was a fertile place for people to grow. And I look back at that little high school band — it was eighth grade through 12th grade, and the program was about 100 kids. There were 800 kids in the school. And out of my class of 25 seniors, I think nine of us went into some form of music, or stayed through college, played in college bands. I don't think we're all nine band directors, but there are a few. And then several of them marched drum corps and did college band and still play. So I mean, that's a huge percentage of 25 kids. And so you know, it was just him — there was he and a paid percussion instructor — but the culture was amazing and he would make things happen that you didn't think could happen in the middle of nowhere. So again, I don't want — I think there are places that are fertile because of the work of one person and I admire that so very much. I had the great fortune of having so many support systems in place that I think it's pretty easy for people to go, well yeah, if you had all those things, it would be easy to be good. And I agree.

Yeah, that's absolutely understandable. But you have to be good at your craft too. You just have to. So I mean, you had success because you're really good at your craft. So, you know, for anybody listening, I do think that that is a critical piece also. So just, I just wanted to throw that out there in the ether. So Amanda, we've come to the point in the podcast where we ask all of our guests 3 standing questions. And I'll take the first one. Do you have a soapbox topic? And it can be about anything. It can be about music, life, band director, whatever you want.

Do I have a soapbox topic? Wow. Can I come back to that one while I make sure I say what I should say? Let's go to the next question, then I'm going to bounce back to that one.

Sure. So the next question, is there a book or several books, particular books that have inspired you in your journey? Again, doesn't have to be musical, just books you love.

I really enjoy reading Doctor Tim's articles, books, anything that he puts out just because, I mean, there's only one Doctor Tim, and in those pages there's just a wealth of inspiration and a wealth of experience and a wealth of life experience to back it up. I mean, that man has given more to music education than one should and could. He's been the giving tree of music education and someone that I admire and love very much. And so if I'm having a bad day, I always go back to that one — any of his materials. I would say the one that I really enjoy and that stays on my rotation is The Six Thinking Hats by Edward de Bono. And it's about the need for there to be a variety of perspectives when you're trying to run a great team. So everybody has a specific color hat and there's room at the table for everyone, no matter what their nature is. So you know, if you have a yellow hat wearer on your team that always thinks everything's going to work great, you need that person on the team. Or the black hat wearer, someone that thinks nothing's ever going to work — you really need that person on the team as well. And I think that's really taught me to welcome all types of input and welcome all types of personalities because it takes all of us, with the best direction, to do anything that it is that we want to do. So that one's on my rotation as well. And it's an easy read.

Great, we're going to add it to our list. OK, the soapbox, John.

I worry and I feel concerned when directors are overtly negative about their surroundings, their students, their administrators, their problems. I think that there is a place for that and a time for that and that those types of things should be something that you can and do share, but I find that those that do it in a way that is not helpful — including standing around having a gripe session at convention or posting online or talking to this group of people when it's really that one person that they should talk to, or throwing cheap shots at a superintendent or throwing cheap shots at one of their students' parents — things like that. I know that it's the microcosm of our society. I mean, that's what we're all busy doing right, is reading all of these things online and hearing it. We turn on the news. But I think each of us has the power and the self restraint to combat that with goodness in purpose and goodness in intent. I always think, I always wonder if we're — if someone is willing to ascribe good intent to someone's actions, it will keep them much calmer and less stressed. You know, if you think, OK, I really don't like this decision. I can't believe we're going to have a pep rally on Friday. Whatever it is. But surely there's got to be a good reason for this. Oh, it's because it's the swim kids and we never get to celebrate those. So, you know, I don't really want to have a pep rally on Friday, but I'm not going to go scorched earth and call my principal an idiot. So I do coach — maybe over-coach sometimes — when I walk into a setting where there's just all of those lightning rounds of criticisms of people that have to make very difficult decisions every day. And I think when the directors model that, then the students do it as well. I feel the same way about teachers talking about adjudicators. It just sends me over the edge to listen. I go, well, you made them fundraise to go to this contest. You sold it to the parents, took their Saturday and sent them there for eight hours. And then you guys came home and said, well, this judge doesn't like us anyway, and that judge's friend was teaching in that group, and they just don't like us. And why would you — it just makes them look bad to basically tell the kids that the adjudicators were not legitimate or their commentary was not legitimate, when the director is picking the contest and having them go through that experience. So yeah, that's my soapbox — being a good leader.

Thank you. Now for the ultimate question and arguably the most important that we've talked about today. What is your favorite time signature?

3/4.

OK, that was quick. Didn't have to think. Why?

You know, my Country Tis of Thee. I mean, anything that pulls the heartstrings is 3/4, I think.

All right, I think that's a very good answer, but the right answer is common time.

Common time. Of course. Well, just on this podcast though.

Hey, Amanda, thanks so much for your time today. It's been a great conversation and just so much depth in there for us to dig into and our listeners to dig into, so we really appreciate your time.

With you guys too, it's so good to see your faces on camera. Thank you for the chance to talk band and I just appreciate everything you guys do.

And that's a wrap on today's episode. Thanks for spending part of your day with us on the Common Time Podcast. If today's conversation gave you something to think about or something to try with your students, we'd love for you to share this episode with a colleague. And you can also follow us on social media for episode clips, behind the scenes content, and updates to our upcoming guests. And if you haven't already, please be sure to subscribe so that you never miss an episode. Until next time, keep making music and keep making a difference.