Hi everybody, and welcome back to Season 3 of the Common Time podcast. We're so glad to have you here to continue bringing our conversations, insights, and inspiration for music educators everywhere. Each week, we'll highlight voices from across the music world and share ideas that you can bring directly into your classroom and to your ensembles. Before we begin our conversation today, however, it's time for our standing ovation, a new segment of our show where we shine a spot on one of our incredible colleagues that is truly making a difference in the field. This week we're recognizing Brandon Fisher from McKinney High School. The nominator chose to remain anonymous, but in any case, Brandon Fisher is quickly and quietly building one of the most incredible 6A band cultures out there today. Brandon and his team of assistants are an absolute dream team who set the example of servant leadership and embody the phrase how you do anything is how you do everything, day in and day out. The students have embraced their directors message and are fully bought in, approaching all the little things with great care and their rehearsal procedures, high energy and blistering pace are absolutely off the charts. The dance parties keep it fun and balanced and when it's time to work, they flip the switch and they work. Kudos to Brandon Fisher and Team McKinney. We know that in our profession it's not often that we get the spotlight, but we think that you deserve one. So to Brandon Fisher and all the hard working music educators out there, this ovation is for you. And if you have someone you'd like to nominate, the link is in the show notes. And now let's turn to our guest. Our guest today is Doctor Tim Lautzenheiser. Welcome, Tim.
Welcome to you. This is great. Thanks for inviting me to do this.
Oh absolutely, we are so excited. So Tim, you really need no introduction as you are well known in the music education world as a teacher, clinician and author, composer, consultant. I could keep going. Perhaps above all though, a trusted friend to anyone that's interested in working with young people, serving young people and helping them develop a desire for excellence. So we are excited to have you with us to kick off our third season of the Common Time podcast. John, why don't you get us started?
Thanks, David. Hi, Tim. It's always good to see you, my friend.
You too.
So I'm just gonna get started. So looking back, Tim, what sparked your passion for connecting leadership and attitude to music education? How did it all start?
That's a great question because I think we all go through it at one time or another. I did all the right things that both of you've done. And something was always, I would go to the workshops, I would learn new conducting things, I would go listen to new literature, etcetera. And it's like, well, we're getting better, but there still wasn't that feeling of complete openness. And then it started to flip in my mind, well, maybe we should have context before content, if that makes sense. And if they don't feel totally safe and totally comfortable, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, then maybe musically that has an impact too. And it did. So that was what triggered it, yeah.
Yeah, that is so true. I remember, I think we all think about that in terms of content before context, but we don't always get it right. And it's a process for sure. And you've trained literally tens of thousands of students and directors on leadership. So I'm curious, what do you believe are the non-negotiable traits of a great student leader in the music classroom?
Role modelling. I mean, we can all talk. We've all read the books, we've all gone through all the parts and made, you know, we've had our leadership workshops and we've talked about it and people have taken notes and everything. But there's a lot of difference between talking it and walking it. And I think we all, it's not, this is interesting, it's not knowledge, it's wisdom. It's what you do with the knowledge. You know, like we all know not to eat sugar, but we eat sugar. So if we can take that knowledge and integrate it into what we're doing, and that's not negotiable for me. You know, you can't turn it on and off. Leadership isn't something you do, it's something you are. So it's part of your being.
That makes sense. No, absolutely. I think I love reading leadership books and the first book that I ever read was called Leadership 101 by John Maxwell. A mentor at the time gave it to me, Mark McGahee, you probably know him.
Of course. Yeah.
Mark gave me this book and I was young and I still have it. It's a little blue and white book. I keep it on my desk, but I remember a concept from that is the first person you lead is yourself.
Absolutely. And it's, I mean, that's really kind of what we're talking about here, even though we can teach this to the students, but ultimately we have to be the role model. The train doesn't go faster than the engine, right?
That's exactly right. And that is true in so many different ways. I mean, that's true in leadership, that's true in expertise, that's true in being the good person, that's true in all the things. Yeah. And David, how did you know Mark? Did you go to school there?
No, Mark was, I taught the Cavaliers starting in 2000 and Mark McGahee was co-caption head and I was teaching in the Dallas Fort Worth at the time as an associate director across town. So I knew Mark, knew of Mark, and Mark had his undergraduate from the University of Oklahoma and I did my masters at Oklahoma. So there were loose connections, but our first real kind of opportunity together was the Cavaliers. And that first summer is when he gave me that book. So it's a great book. I still treasure it.
It's crushed them, yeah.
Absolutely. So then Tim, I'm gonna change directions slightly. So much of your work is centered on attitude and relationships. In an age where students are pulled in so many different directions, how can directors build a culture where students genuinely want to give their best?
Another great question. We could write books about each of these questions, couldn't we? Anthologies. Well, I mean, we look at what builds the culture. And I mean, you're musicians and we've all been around great musicians, but the culture is not there. And it's sort of like having pieces of the puzzle, but there's no mortar to hold the bricks together. There's nothing. And I think first of all, it has to be a safe environment. Now you're both young. I came from the oak of people where there was no wiggle room, my way or the highway. And when you grow up with that, it's still with the idea that the ends justifies the means. You know, we'll go through some bad processes on the journey, but once the concert's over with and they're standing and throwing roses or whatever, then that will justify it. But it doesn't. And I came from that stock of people and I'm good at that. You know, I can slice and dice with the best of them. But then I would hear people say in the hallways, you know, I hate his guts, you know, yeah, it was a great concert. But oh God, we're going to have rehearsal on Monday. I'm like, we should be running to do this. So if the culture is not safe, that's the first thing, you know, because we're animals. We seek safety. That's Maslow's survival, bottom of the scale. And I think it has to be challenging because in today's world, you can't blow sunshine on people because they can look it up on the Internet and their phones and call you wrong by the time the sentence is out. So it has to be safe, it has to be challenging. And then I think this is the one that gets confused, it has to be encouraging. And a lot of people mix that up with just throwing out all these compliments and so forth. And that's like, well, they're not deaf. They know it sounds bad. So you have to be honest with them. But there's a way, don't you think? I mean, you guys are better at this than I am. Don't you think there's a way to be honest and not be dehumanizing?
Of course, but then also too, we talk to our music education students about this all the time. After the students play something, they stop. Be careful what you say next, right? Because if I say good all the time, well, one, it doesn't really mean anything. Two, it's like crying wolf, right? And then thirdly, your point is spot on. They can hear and they know it wasn't good. Anyone knows what's going on so then they're like, do you know what you're doing, you know? But then on the other side too, we've all seen words that have just taken people down a notch and you've seen students just deflate and I'm not sure they're ever going to recover from that. I mean, not fully. You know, they aren't ever going to be the same, right? So I think as teachers we have such a huge responsibility, and if we don't do it the right way, it can be tough.
Well, you can't unsay something. You can say I'm sorry, I melted down, I was having a bad day. But the bullet's still been fired. You can take it away, but there's still a scar. And this is where, like I say, in my stock of people it was like, well, it'll all iron itself out. And you kind of know I was just kidding. No, I didn't know in front of 75 people that you were kidding when you told me to either learn to play the horn or sell it. And all my friends turned and looked at me. No. And I'm guilty. I'm guilty.
So we all are, for sure. I think we all are, right. Well, you mentioned that you came from a background where that was kind of the modus operandi. And I actually did too. I was sort of on the edge of that form of teaching kind of evolving into something different, I guess. So I've experienced both and I remember the feeling of trying to reach perfection and being in a room where you just felt stress. And we're talking about music, which is the weirdest thing. It's like we're in a room where I'm feeling stress also trying to just make music. It's supposed to be beautiful.
It's like you shot it down right there, pal.
Yeah. So it's just really interesting. I think when we talk about especially safety, I think right now we've seen these memes that say, you know, we don't know what someone else is going through, always choose kindness. And I think that's so true in our classrooms too. And you mentioned that, but giving our students an opportunity to feel safe, seen and heard. And I think that happens in the rehearsal process too, of giving the students the ability to listen and provide feedback and be conversational and collaborative, because it wasn't collaborative when I was growing up.
It was, you know, play, stop, listen to me.
Yeah. And then mark your part, let's do it again. So yeah, you mentioned books a second ago. You've written several, Art of Successful Teaching, The Job of Inspired Teaching, I think are probably staples in our field. Kind of thinking about what you've written, if you could write one more chapter now that it's 2025, what would it be about?
Probably the importance of time. You know, when they say we're all created equal, well, not in my ear training class. I don't know about yours, but you know, when you're sitting beside somebody who has perfect pitch, dictation takes on a different meaning when the rest of us are over there going here comes the bride, you know, trying to figure it out with any trick we could get together. And so here's the person sitting beside me going, yeah, blue, yellow. I mean, it was like looking at colors for this person. So we're not all created equal, with the exception of time, 24 hours a day. And if both of you, if we think about the great teachers we knew or know or even think we are, it's the people who can make the best use of time. They don't waste time. So that's why, like you said, John, our words are so important because in Hollywood, you can retake it. It's a mistake, but you can retake it. You can't in real life. You can say we'll do it again, but you can't do it again for the time you just did it. So when you said just a little bit ago, if it comes between being right and being kind, probably go with kind, because you can always go back and be right. But you can't always go back and be kind because you've already played that card. It's gone. And when we don't allow that safety, they build up an immunity. As you said, if you just say good every time, pretty soon good doesn't mean anything except water, salt, air, you know. And it's an art form, I think, being able to criticize in a kind way, because ultimately what we do on the podium is we assess people's performance, right? So therefore you have to critique it. But it is an art form that is so much more complicated than it seems, I think.
Yes, it's very delicate. And you know what, man, what that means to one person doesn't mean that to another person. So you know, we come back to that. I treat all my students the same, and I'm like, really, well, they're certainly not all the same. And if we don't adjust and tailor our words... That's why when people say, oh, I think I've got what you guys have been teaching, I know less now than I knew my first year of teaching. Does that make sense? Because I thought I knew it right.
And I'm like, you know nothing.
The knowledge is nothing. That is so true. You know, that's interesting, yes. You have to flip the script like that. You think that, well, I thought I knew everything and then you realize how expansive the knowledge is and you know nothing. I remember when I was walking in to the exam room to do my comprehensive exams in my doctorate, right? I spent years memorizing information, right? I think I am the smartest human on the planet. You sit down, the first committee member asks you a question. You're like, yep. And you're saying all the bad words in your mind. If you think you're prepared, right. Same thing was true, though. And I think all of us probably felt this way the first day in your class, your first classroom. I remember it vividly, walking into Griffin Middle School in The Colony, TX, with Dick Clardy in the back of the room, and I'm just sitting there. I give the most beautiful downbeat that I've ever given in my entire life. Man, I was just a fabulous conductor back then, right? And the sound comes at me and I'm like, now what? It's amazing how much you don't know. But that's not a bad thing. I tell my students here all the time, look, you're going to go in there and you're going to be overwhelmed in every possible way. And you know what, if you're not, you really don't know a lot, right? Like just go in there. It's OK to not know, ask questions, be honest, learn and be kind, right?
Yes, because at the end of the day it's just band. And again, we're all impostors. Let's be honest about it. Of course. How many doctors... And if we don't admit that we're vulnerable, how can they admit it, right? How can they grow? If they think we know it all, aren't they going to be disappointed? Maybe higher standards, I'll tell you.
I mean, because it's interesting. I sit in Ravelli's chair every day, right? And I often text my dear friend David. I'm like, OK, I am just, he is doing backflips right now going what are you doing to my band, John? What are you doing to my band, John? You know, but well, just as a side note, could you imagine teaching how he did back then?
Oh, no, you know. Very, very good. Yeah. But I mean, times were obviously different and how he was successful back then was very successful, right? But just times ebb and flow, right? Pretty interesting, right?
Well, I don't know if you saw this, but there's been floating around the Internet recently these articles about Bob Reynolds, which has been really fantastic. But I've noticed in some of the comments that the vibe is a welcome change from what students had had previously, that he was inviting, he was collaborative, he was kind, he was just such a different personality, and those students were immediately responsive to him. So even back then, I mean, Bob took over decades ago. So you know, it's really, this is, it's taken us a long time to finally make it sort of a central focus that the classroom has to be a safe space and a space where we are working with people. There's a child across from us that we have to inspire. But you know, and it's also impossible to judge today or judge yesterday from today's standards, right? So obviously I respect Doctor Ravelli immensely, I mean in every possible way. But I mean, times are different, right? And then when I'm retired, as soon as humanly possible, I love my job, kidding, you know, and 30 years whenever they're doing whatever the equivalent of a podcast is today, I often think about how are my students going to talk about me, you know, and I hope it's positive. I hope it's that encouraging artistry, all the things. But at the end of the day, does it really matter? This is a really interesting point. I was talking to Professor Reynolds once, this was a couple years ago, and he asked me, he's like, John, when I'm on my deathbed...
Do you think it's going to matter how many times I've conducted the Hindemith Symphony? Coming from him, that was a pretty pointed statement. That's haunting, you know. So it's like, and he, he's like, it's about the people that you interact with. It's about the relationship that you form. Because at the end of the day, whether you've done symphonic metamorphosis 85 times or none, what does it matter, right? Well. You know, anyway. Doctor Ravalli became a good friend in his later years. And we were, everybody was scared of him. And I was like, OK, come on, I'm going to learn as much as I can from him, you know? So we were sitting one night talking and I said, Doctor Willett, you had the reputation of being very stern. And, boy, those eyes you just cracked at me. And I said, do you think you'd get away with that these today? And he goes, oh, Tim, I thought you were smarter than that. And I'm. I was like, what? He said I'd be in jail. So he knew. He knew it was intentional. He knew, absolutely.
Yeah, That's very interesting. This is how fascinating art form that you know we're in. But the art of teaching, right? And that's what we're all going to do. Yeah, it's absolutely evolved. Yeah, absolutely. So then just to transition slightly, you often speak about how, how, how music is more than notes on a page. And that certain, that certainly resonates with me and it, it's a vehicle for shaping lives, right. So are you able to share a story or something that where you saw music transform a student or community in an unexpected way?
I think we you guys probably have better stories than I do. I I know there was a lot of, and I think again, you help me out with this when when we look at particular high school band, for example, maybe and what and a really good program, maybe 8 to 10 will go on to be professional musicians and that might be generous, right? And maybe 25 or 30 will go on to be music teachers like we are band directors. What about everybody else? The bulk of it is everybody else, the the doctors and the lawyers and the et cetera. So when we talk about changing lives, we tend to think musically changing lives. And I think maybe from the majority, it's more the culture that changes their lives. That makes sense. Like the habits that are developed in in band, those same habits they take over. You know, they always say that all the band kids are the smartest kids in the well, that's not true. Once once they join band is when their academic grades go up. It's not a result of it's because those habits of discipline, commitment, cooperation, all of the what they call soft skills. They just applied everything else. And all of a sudden they're reading the whole book instead of just the parts they like. So that's where the music changes. And yes, I've got there's been a lot of kids that have gone on to do great things that that first semester in college, I'm like, you chose the wrong profession, right? You know, insta gratification was not there. That if that makes sense. So yeah, did you guys start out at the top of your class? I mean, were you the ace number one person?
Oh heck no. I mean, I was, I hate to say that I was at the top of my class, but I did well. But I, I was fortunate. I, I studied trumpet at North Texas from 6th grade through 12th grade. And I studied with John Haney because the teacher that started me moved away and he said, well, let me see if I can get you in with my teacher, which happened to be Professor Haney. So I was, I, I think that was a, well, it's transformational. I mean, John Haney was incredible. He was like my grandfather. Absolutely. 6th grade at the time, I took lessons at his home and, but I was, I mean, I became really good at that instrument and I was a good musician. But what was interesting to me at the time, I was in a private school that didn't have a band. I just played the coordinate with John Haney. That was what I did. And so that's kind of a weird dynamic because I wasn't playing in an ensemble. So the, the dynamic of competition or any of that was foreign to me. I didn't. So I wasn't competitive. I didn't go into. I did end up going to public school in the 10th grade because I wanted to be in a band. But. I didn't like auditioning for things was foreign to me. Marching band was I went to the first. My high school manager was a gentleman named Jim McDaniel and Jim, Jim was like he was old school. I'll just say that he was old school and we we were playing in that time in his career. We were doing jazz shows on the field. And he he handed me the first part and I was good enough to play the first part, but it had this part in the middle, little jazz solely. And I gave the part back, said, you know, Mr. McDaniel, I don't this is too challenging. I don't think I'll be able to learn this. What I didn't know, I didn't even understand the concept of a solely that was for all the trumpets We're all playing. So he put me on 3rd parts, like OK, son, here's the third part. So I played third part the whole year. Like that's what it was. But I still had to learn that solely and ended up being one of like 5 or 6 that actually played the solely. But I just wasn't. I think I was kind of at the top of the class, but I didn't really even know what that was supposed to be or look like or feel or so come like even the Allstate process and doing that stuff, it was for. And I'd never taken an audition. Never. So like I could prepare the pieces. So like it was, it was kind of weird for me. If you if you hadn't. That's a good memory. I haven't really thought about that for a long time, but.
If you hadn't been in that environment with those people, would you have been who you are today?
No, not at all.
There you go. Which is, which is beautiful. And notice what you talked about first. David was I went to his house. He was like my grandfather. You didn't say he played 16 notes at 218. It was about the relationship first, yes. And you would have probably done anything in the world for the man, right? You would have walked on hot coals if you'd absolutely. There you go. Absolutely. Trust.
And the same with with Jim McDaniel too. It's really funny. Jim later on became the director of Fine Arts across town, right, And gave me my first job. And ironically, after my first UIL, we, we finished stage, went to sight reading, walked out of the room, we got sweepstakes. So my, I felt like my stock was high. And he put his hand on my shoulder and he said, congratulations, David. Now you're going to have to just relax. And I was like, well, Jim, I'm just doing what you did. But he was a, he was a wonderful mentor as well. I mean, having both Jim in my life and and John Haney, I mean just there's a lot of compress those two individuals together and you get a version of myself down the road that really reflects and has made a lot of, I guess the way I teach is based on what they taught me.
Yeah. What is it? We don't. We don't teach us. We're taught to teach. We teach us. We're taught. We replicate our teachers.
That is very true. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so. It's it's interesting Speaking of that in it in a strange way, my wife was because we we spoke to a couple seasons ago, my cooperating teacher, Cindy Lansford. Cindy was your.
Cooperating teacher, Yeah.
We've got. Some heavyweights here, I mean. I'll tell you talk. I mean she and Bill Watson and and so Cindy, I would walk over hot coals for Cindy Lansford with that question. Of course, me too.
It turns out that that she does this thing with her finger under her nose and I never realized that I did it and my wife was like, I never realized why you did that till I saw Cindy Lansford do it on this podcast that I put my finger under my I mean, just it's it's funny how we pick up small things, right? But I mean, she was no one better in my opinion at middle school and in teaching culture and all the things right. She and by the way, she kicked my butt seven days till Sunday and I've never loved to get a kick more by anyone.
She's back. He and Amanda drink water because I talked with with her in the colony and there's no better teacher in my opinion, than Amanda drink water anyway. But genius, right? But you learn from the teachers. I think that that's such an interesting point. So anyone listening, take this to heart. What are are your students who are going to be teaching? How are they going to teach from what or and how you teach? I think that is, yeah, a golden nugget that you just said right there. Thank you. You know we replicate.
Go ahead, David. I was thinking about teachers. We, you know, directors often struggle with balancing, you know, the high standards, it's a competitive world there, but also their like personal well-being, like how do they stay balanced, if you will? So I'm curious if you have advice for, for any educator out there that want that's, you know, working towards sustained excellence, but also without the fear of burning out, I guess is a way to say that.
The another great question because there's no answer because balance is different for everybody. If I you know, John, you just, you just took all those kids to Europe and that wasn't a vacation. I mean, I'm sure that every time the phone rang, you just leaped out of bed went oh, now And now what can I, can I get them all home at one time? A balance is different for everybody. I you know, and I don't want to do IME stuff, but I'm on the road 200 days a year, sometimes 250. And my wife, who is a, a St. I mean, we went to 1st grade together. She knows every right and, but she's very platonic on her own. So balance for us is different than it would be for a couple that's codependent and neither is right or wrong. So I think each person has to find that. It's like intonation. You're working on it all the time, right? You just don't notch the horn and put the slide there. And when people say I'm burnt out, I, I, I have a thing about that, that what are you burnt out on? You burn out on music. Oh, come on. That can't be, that doesn't happen. You can't get burnt out. Maybe you're burnt out on your schedule or you're burnt out on your prioritization or you're burnt out on the age you're teaching and you need to shift to you're, you know, you're going down a road that's all of a sudden not paved anymore. And so that's that's a tough question. I don't know. There's an answer. I'm not sure. It's black and white. It's all a shade of grey.
Yeah. Makes sense. Well. I think that may be the answer. That could be that someone else's being at the band room X number of hours works for them and it works with their family dynamic dynamic. It works for who they are compared to someone else who just can't do that without feeling overwhelmed.
That's good. No, maybe that's you're right. You're right, David.
Yeah. So then I guess the challenge is how do those people work together, you know, when they're in situations where they're all trying to achieve this high level of excellence?
It's interesting what you because I was just thinking, we, we just finished our pre season camp yesterday at the University of Michigan and I was like, because today I'm, I have to admit I'm, I'm kind of struggling a little bit, a little tired, but I was like, what am I tired of? I'm not tired of rehearsing music. I'm not tired of my students. I'm not tired of my colleagues. I'm tired of sitting behind a computer doing spreadsheets. I'm tired of, you know, all the other mundane things. But I'll tell you, I even though I have been tired, when I stand in front of those students and we make music, bring it on, there's just nothing better professionally for me. There's just I love it.
Absolutely. See, that's it. That's it, John, Exactly. Because take out, it's not the whole puzzle you're tired of, it's a piece of the puzzle you're tired of. Salt. Don't don't throw the baby out with the bathwater here saying you're burnout is just trying to get away from suing some responsibility things fix that. And and David, what you said, how do you get along with the staff staffing? It's our likenesses that bring us together, but it's our differences that keep us together. Interesting way to say that's. If we were all exactly alike, maybe everybody would want to play, I don't know, saxophone or.
Something Dodd's instrument, by the way, right?
Absolutely. Of course. I mean, how could I even miss that? But you want to celebrate those differences. But you know, it's like the what's the thing? If you and your spouse agree on everything, one of you's unnecessary.
That's awesome. Well, I mean it.
Is. I've never heard that but I love it.
I mean, it's like, it's like feedback on a on an amplifier. You want differences because that makes you grow and learn. And I didn't find that out right away. Let me share it and I'm still have trouble with it. I love it.
So just to change topics slightly from a bit more holistic approach or Eagle vision as my my former colleague, Professor Haycock says it. So from the perspective Tim, that you have had over generations, some would say just because you have so much experience, what excites you the most about the future of music education? And then also where do you see our upcoming most significant challenges in the future going forward?
Another guy, you guys got great questions. See, you know, I always thought someday or by would get it and every kid would be in music every day and and you know it at almost 80 years old, we're still fighting the fight. We're going to going up the back of the mountain and perhaps we'll always do that. People take it for granted when the all the stuff came out, John, about the brain research and you know, and I kind of rolled my eyes and like, yeah, sure will music for the sake of music. But for a lot of people, that is an important part of it, you know, and I think the more we understand how the mind works and how important creativity is, that's where we will go with music and as it grows and so forth. Why, why does Beethoven last, you know, and then something else that doesn't make a past four copies. So if I look at the Future Music education, if there's an answer to we're working together, it's going to come from the arts because it's the only common denominator there is. And I just, you know, I don't want to go into a philosophical, you know, orbit here, but we're the only animal in the force that kills each other just for the sake of doing it. So if we're going to find peace within ourselves and peace within the the planet itself, it's got to come from art. I mean, didn't your kids love it when you went to Europe and they got to meet all different cultures and didn't they come home better people?
They did. We all did, for sure.
Yeah. Argument, too, though, Tim, right? Like after every rehearsal, every concert, everyone's different. I'm different. They're different.
Absolutely yes. Yeah. Yes, we grow, we expand. And what people go? Well, yeah, but it doesn't last. Yeah, it does. Because even when you come down off that high, so to speak, you never go down as far. So you start and go, right? Like I remember the first the very first band piece I ever played. I remember it like vividly. I was in Manitowoc, WI and my my teacher Mrs. Neustetter. I'll never forget it. I played trumpet back then and it was the Foxwood Overture by Anne McGinty. Anne McGinty. I can still do it. Beam, bump, bump, bump, bump up. I still know it still. Because that was. That was a formative time in my life, right? And I remember the first time I switched to tuba, the first piece that I played. I remembered my first conducting recital. I remember. But then again, too, it doesn't really matter at the end of the day. I just remembered that I love music. You felt my students? Yeah. And I mean, and even though like the students that I teach now, of the 400 that are in the a marching band, only 3% are studying music professionally. So 97% are doing other things, right? And they just do this because they absolutely love it, right? And so it's my job to inspire them every day, right? As as Michael Haycock says, our students have 222 natural resources, their time and their talent. And if we maximize both, just imagine what can be done with that. But if we waste either of those, that's an that's a failure as an educator. That's malpractice.
Agree with that, yeah. Malpractice. Yeah. This is probably about. It's like talking into a mirror when I talk to you guys. This is wonderful. You're wonderful.
Yeah, Tim, I'm curious. We're getting getting toward the interior. But if you had just one message to leave with every music educator listening to the episode, what would it be?
The these are such great questions. We have to develop trust. You know, you if you do one of those go around the world, what what's the most important thing about teaching or band or anything? And then you go communication, cooperation and so forth and you can keep going. I still think it comes back to trust because all those others build on that, right? And if we're all, you know, it's like people will listen to this podcast and it will have nothing to do with what we say. It'll have to do with their interpretation of what we say, which is an attitude filter, right? We all, we don't see things as, we don't see the world as it is. We see the world as we are. You, you with me. So there'll be people will listen to this and go, oh, wow. And somebody else going what a waste of time that was. And they will have all heard the same words.
Yeah. Does that make sense? So the the lens of who we are shapes and shades, everything.
So true. I mean because at the end of the day, perception is reality.
Yeah, subconscious is reality. It is. Yeah, it sees. It sees everything is truth.
It's so true that the trust concept is, I don't know how I wish we could hammer that home even more. We've talked about a lot today, but this is such an important thing.
I have a book on my, on my desk that it's called The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lyncioni. And I've read this book, gosh, many years ago, it was before I got to Kansas at the University of Kansas, I used this as a, a basis for our leadership training. And there's a, for those that are watching this, there's, there's a pyramid in this, the bottom of the pyramid, the bottom, the foundation of the pyramid is the first dysfunction is the absence of trust and everything is built off of that. And this is a business book. This is a book about business and board leadership and it's not a music book. And I, I approached at that time, I just kind of rethought. I'm stepping in front of an ensemble and I'm the CEO and I'm building this out like a CEO. Yes, we're going to play music, but ultimately I have to empower this machine to run and work well. And this book was really transformative for me in the idea that trust and trust that's developed through vulnerability. It was so significant and it changed the impact that I had on those students. I mean, it just, and their ability, our ability to work together in a collaborative spirit, just it just changed. And I didn't know I didn't have that knowledge previously, like from music stuff. This was something I had to really search out elsewhere. But now I think it applies. So it should be applied in the classroom just as a base level like that's we have to start with building a culture of trust. And we, we started the conversation with this talking about safe feeling, safe space and so forth.
But immediately, I'm just so glad you said that. Well, which came first, chicken or the egg where, you know, we're back to that. And there's a lot of people that would say the most important thing is knowledge. Well, it's like a salt shaker. If you can't get the lid off, it doesn't make any difference how much salt you have to pour in. And the lid is the trust, right? And if I don't trust you, I'm going to hold back a little bit for my survival. It's just instinctive. Or here's the greatest band director lie in the whole world. If you're going to make a mistake, make a loud one. Well, and then you get ripped in front of your friends for not counting. And I mean, I'm a precaution. You think I'm going to put that cymbal crash where? I'm not sure. Are you kidding me? Right. I'll set them down first. Well, you know, and it's, I mean the old adage, it's 10% what you say and 90% how you say it. How you say it. But the how you say it has to be based in trust, because I mean, you could be the smartest, most knowledgeable person in the world. If people don't want to listen to you, that's a problem. Well, you've all had great professors in college that had trouble teaching, yes?
Oh yeah, I hope I'm not one of them.
Oh, you're not. Kids love you. No, you should be. And now I'm just telling you, 300 kids going to Europe? Are you kidding me? That in itself is worth the dissertation.
You know, this conversation has been so wonderful and so helpful to to to me personally, David personally, and I hope that everybody listening. But so here is where we ask a couple questions of all of our guests and I'm going to take the first one. So do you have the soapbox topic Tim? Do you have a soapbox topic like like this is my passionate soap box. I'm going to get on the soapbox and.
Yeah, but I just think that that we have to be aware that people don't get better by making them feel worse. There's a way to make, if we criticize in private and praise in public, we're probably going to be OK. But people repeat behavior, they get attention for good and or bad. It's true. So you know, all the student teachers, classroom discipline is what they're concerned about. Well, if you're going to yell at me, and I know that gets attention, that's some good stuff I'll bring to you. So again, it's the approach. That's my soapbox. Not, not is Hindemith worth it or is Lincolnshire worth it? We know it's worth it. It's the process of getting there that I'm concerned about. Yeah, that's that's my soapbox. Take care of each other.
That's a good one. That's a good one. This is a little easier. We like to share with our readers, our listeners books, anything that are, you know, when we have guests on, is there a book that's inspired you or particular books that along the way you'd like to share with our listeners? And it doesn't have to be music. Can we do something like my business book?
Yeah, this is. I like Wayne Dyer because he's just so down to earth. And he wrote a fiction book. It's not really popular. It's not one of his most popular ones called Gifts from Eykis. And it's about a lady who comes from another planet and it's much like Earth, except they pay doctors to keep them healthy. They don't pay them when they get sick. They quit paying them when they get sick. And it's, it's everything is inverse of the way we do it. And it's called Gifts from Eykis and it's written as fiction. But of course, it's based on the principles of living and how to work together. And don't waste time worrying and, and you know, fretting about things. Don't waste time with negative behavior that hurts you and other people because our personalities are contagious. And nobody ever recommends it but you can get it on Amazon, Gifts from Eykis.
We're going to add it to the list. We'll check that out.
Yeah, you'll like it. Good for teachers.
All right, so Tim, our final question for the day and arguably the most important. What's your favorite time signature?
Oh my goodness sakes. Well, I'm a rocker, play a lot of jazz, right? So it's pretty hard to top two and four, you know, when you lay down that's right.
That's right. That's fantastic. We've not really had anybody thus far attach that answer to jazz. You're the first.
I love it. Yeah, ever to rock to something that's putting down just once you get in that pocket, I mean, yeah, your whole life changes. It becomes a beautiful place all around you.
I love it. I love it. Tim, thank you so much for being on today. We are so appreciative of you and appreciative of your time. So again, we really are. We're blessed and we we thank you so much.
I thank you guys. Good to see you all keep doing it.
That's it for today's episode of the Common Time Podcast. And thank you for spending time with us. We hope that today's conversation will give you something useful to take back to your students and your program. And if you enjoy this episode, make sure you subscribed so you don't miss what's coming up. And if you know another director who might benefit from this, please share it with them. Also, don't forget you're able to nominate a music educator for our Standing Ovation program. The link to submit is in the show notes below. Thanks again for joining us on the Common Time podcast. As always, keep making music and keep making a difference.