Hi everybody, and welcome back to Season 3 of the Common Time podcast. We're so glad to have you here to continue bringing our conversations, insights, and inspiration for music educators everywhere. Each week, we'll highlight voices from across the music world and share ideas that you can bring directly into your classroom and to your ensembles. And now let's turn to our guest. Our guest today is Doctor Sarah McCoy and welcome Sarah.
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Absolutely. Sarah is the Director of bands at Texas Tech University and she's also the chair of conducting and ensembles area. She leads the graduate conducting program and oversees a really vibrant and comprehensive band curriculum. And I'm excited to dig into the topic of graduate study with her today. John, why don't you get us started?
Thanks, David. Hi, Sarah, good morning. It's an honor to have you. And you know, I have such high respect for you and I have looked up to you for so many years. It's an honor to be talking to you. So we often get a lot of questions about undergraduate students or teachers that are currently in the profession about wanting to go to graduate school in conducting. And I think it's a topic that is important for us to kind of dive into. And so whenever you think about students who are considering a graduate degree in conducting, what do you believe they should truly understand before taking that step?
Well, I think they need to really think about what they want out of their program. Why are you going back to school? Are you going because you're curious about learning? Are you running from something, which some people do, I think. And so I think really having a kind of a clear understanding of yourself about why you're doing what you're doing, other than I want to have your job, you know, type of thing — like what are you, why are you coming back to school?
Is it — it almost feels like people don't really know why. Do you have any suggestions about how to kind of process that?
Well, I was talking to somebody about this — I'm trying to remember who it was — but something in our profession and we were talking about graduate students just in the total. And I seem to see sort of two types of students to that why question, why they come back. Some see it as sort of a checklist: if I do this and this and this and this, it equals tada, whatever tada is. And I don't think conducting programs work like that necessarily. It might get you access to be able to take that next step in our profession. And then there's some people that are just curious and they want to learn more about the art. They want to learn more about music. They want to learn more about themselves. They're just a little bit more holistically, curiously driven. And then some people are just a little bit more sort of check-box. That's not always really revealed in the first meeting, but I think as you see people, you can probably understand it or see that trend.
I think this is probably along the same lines. Are there specific qualities or habits that you've seen that separate an applicant that's actually ready for graduate work compared to those who need more time or experience?
For me, and it's probably a personal thing — I mean, I think all teachers have to resonate with the people that they have in their studio. And I think it's more of a personal thing. I tend to resonate more with the people in that second category who are more curious, holistic. I think if people are curious learners, sort of void of ego and just curious learners about becoming a better them — I don't want a little group of little me's. I'm more curious about having you be a better you, and how does that look and how do I think it's to the individual student. How do you fashion that, you know, what sorts of things do you do? That's me. Some people don't, I don't think, are as comfortable with that. It's not a better or worse thing. Sometimes I wish I wasn't as focused on each person like that, but I really do try to figure out what it is that makes David Clemmer tick or John Pasquale tick or whoever. That's kind of how I do it.
My teacher did something similar but his goal was to beat Texas out of me. He did a pretty good job of it though.
You know, that's longer than a graduate program.
Yeah, I might have teared up once or twice in the program. I won't mention his name, B66. There's only one of them. He's a Big Bear.
Big Bear. He's a teddy bear, but he can also be — he worked hard on me, but it was a great experience. I wouldn't trade it for the world.
You know, I remember as I was going through the process, it was a bit stressful and a bit daunting because of all these outstanding programs, outstanding teachers, and I mean, we talk to hundreds of prospective students throughout our careers about how to choose the program. So I think it's important for the student to have experience with the teacher that they're going to study with — doing a conducting symposium or having a conversation at Midwest or some connection. So do you have any advice about how prospective graduate students can evaluate a particular program, or specifically a conducting mentor teacher, to find a program that is right for them?
Well, I mean, I think doing exactly what you're saying. I think that having some gateway and knowing somebody — I mean, you're going to be spending the next two or three years of your life with them. That goes two ways, you know. And so doing a conducting symposium so they get a kind of a feel for you and how you learn, and see if you're effective with that person, if they get things from you when they come. If someone's invited to campus, I always had — we do a live audition, I'm sure like everywhere. And then I try and say bring something that you're either working on or want to do, whatever level you're at, whatever you want. And let's just do a little lesson on that. Let's just talk about that. So we'll talk about music or we'll do a little conducting thing or something. But I'd spend time with them individually and kind of try and gauge how that goes. And I think that goes two ways. You know, I just had a conversation yesterday for an hour with someone who is interested in looking — I mean, they're looking everywhere. But try to give them the information they want. I'm trying to understand them. The music world is so small. Some of my TAs know this person, and it's all relationships. I mean, the older I get, you know, it's all relationships.
Yeah, that's very true. I'm curious — what is it, if we're thinking about these people like the person you just interviewed — I'm thinking about preparation. Like if you're thinking about preparing for graduate work, what does healthy preparation look like for someone that's gearing up to enter a graduate program? And I'm going to put that in two ways, musically and personally.
So trying to think — I mean, I think I would have been smarter had I gone, if I could go back to grad school now, I would treat it right, the hindsight perspective. But if somebody is coming in, some of this depends on what level they're coming in. So if you're coming in for a master's or you've had a little more experience, you're coming for a doctorate — different kinds of decisions, I think a little bit. But in general, if you're thinking about coming back to school, I want to know why. I would want them to know why. And then if you're trying to prepare for coming back, once you've made that decision, once you know where you're going or once you've established contact with somebody and kind of know where you want to go — what can you do at that moment to prepare yourself for study? I would say probably surround yourself with as much good music making as you can get around, kind of know your strengths and weaknesses. People will either say play to your strengths or shore up your weaknesses. But it really is an opportunity to do things that you didn't get the first go round. You know, a million years ago I'd never had like just baroque music history. I'd taken tons of 20th century history. I love 20th century history. I love all that. So when I went back to grad school, I took some of that — I did things that I wanted to just get better at and explore. So kind of having an idea about what you want to explore in school rather than coming like an empty vessel, like fill me up. I mean, bringing something to the experience about what you want to do, and then you can help guide them. But having an idea about what your strengths and weaknesses are, what you want to do — it's more than just moving your pinky this way or whatever. And then on the personal side of it, having an understanding of that too, and the rehearsal psychology, all the things that are the psychological part of what we do, all the soft skills stuff — how do you want to work on that? And that's where I said when you get into the checklist versus the more open holistic learner — for me, that sort of learner tends to do a little bit better in that area.
Yeah, I want to take it one little step further. Are there things that you see that are immediate no's for you, like — this person's not prepared, not ready, or not the caliber? Are there just things you see like, no, that's not it?
Yeah, if somebody comes in with a big ego, I'm kind of an old person — I don't like that. Yeah. And that kind of covers a wide swath. If somebody really doesn't know — like you usually see this before the tape, I usually don't see this by the time they get to campus. But if I'm looking at a tape or reading a resume, the resume has — you know, just deeper content about what they've done or pursued, or it goes beyond: I got a bachelor's this year and I'd like to come and study. Right. You know, what kind of content do they have that has enriched their life beyond their current job? What are you doing that's extra? What do you study? When I was teaching, I didn't think of it as extra, it was just — but when I was teaching public school in Michigan, good old Williamston, you know, I would come home and listen. Bob Reynolds told me one time, Jesse Norman's Four Last Songs, you know? And I'm like, oh, I'm going to go listen to that. And you'd listen to that, and that'll lead to something else, and that'll lead to something else. Things like that, I think, help develop you as a musician. And I try to figure out first and foremost what kind of musician they are. And are they good? That's the first thing. Because if they aren't good musicians or artists — everybody can get better, always, forever and ever — but if they don't have that, then it's really hard to teach. You can teach all this and you can teach the book-smart stuff, but if you don't have that in there, then it's a really big problem.
Right. So the materials that you're looking at — so their resume and their videos — you're looking beyond just how they are with a stick or what job they've had. You're looking for them to offer something more.
I'd like the whole person there. I mean, it's a whole person thing.
So I think that's an important thing — it's a whole person vehicle versus a lot of other jobs. Yeah. You know, that's a good point. I think just to highlight, because preparing resumes and videos and stuff is something we spent a lot of time doing. I remember doing that and of course editing videos and having my resume looked over by 25 people, and not really thinking about necessarily what am I doing outside of my teaching time or whatever. Like what else am I showing as a candidate? So I think that's a really interesting point.
Well, I think even if they live their life that way, and in conversation — I mean, if we're talking to one another and you get to know somebody, what makes you curious about a person? Why do you want to know more about that person? It's not because I did something so that you would think I'm more curious as a person. I'm not doing it as a means to an end. I'm just a more curious person. Does that make sense?
And this actually brings up a question that I think is important for us to kind of dive into about the specific tape itself. I think there are many people who have a problem when they submit the tape. It seems like when I watch these, it almost seems like there are two camps. One, they feel like it's a college audition, so they have to play college repertoire with their ensemble that they're conducting — which means they're trying to do the Stravinsky Octet with 8th graders because they think they need to show that. I think that's a problem. But also the surroundings, or how they interact, or they start by talking rather than movement — kind of things like that. Do you have any advice on this? Any don't-do-these, do-these, think-about-these?
You know, I have a student right now that's going through this and he's awesome and he's such a good person. He's so smart and he's a good musician, and he'll listen to this and he'll be smirking because he knows who he is. But he's been struggling with the same thing. And so it's been high on his mind, just trying to — everybody wants to be perfect. We have this — I mean, it's a video world differently than it was when I was applying on my VHS. Didn't have a lot of video editing skills. So different world, different way that we consume information. And I get all that and I get wanting to be perfect, but at the end of the day, I mean, we've all sat in job applications for positions too and looked, and I mean, you get an impression kind of quickly. So I don't have the idea of like, hi, my name is da and here is blah. But I think not talking a lot, finding something where you're doing what you do — if you watch it for a few minutes, you can sort of get a feel for where they are. But I wouldn't stop every second. I'd like to see you move. I'd like to see you in a rehearsal. I'd like to see you teach. And you can take any of those things, really, and isolate them and say, OK, I just want to see teaching, and you look at it one way, or I just want to see you move and you look at it that way, or I want to see how you interact, you look at it that way. But rehearsals are all of those things. I'd rather see a rehearsal than a performance any day of the week.
Yeah. So for our listeners, because I'm assuming there are probably some people out there that have never applied for a graduate degree and don't even know what we're talking about right now — can we back up just for a second? What is it that you require for your program when someone's applying? So we've talked a little bit about reaching out and maybe going to a symposium or meeting them at Midwest or TMEA or something. But like, what are the real requirements when they decide, hey, I would really like to go study with Doctor McCoy? What does that look like? What are they preparing?
Yeah, the nuts and bolts of the actual application — the cold hard facts is: you have to do a video, you have to do your vita, you have to have a little written — we ask for a writing sample so that we know kind of how you think. What else do we ask?
Does your video come with any instructions? Do you give them any kind of guidance?
I think I tell them — I'm trying to remember, we just went through a website — I think I ask for 10 minutes of maybe rehearsal, 10 minutes of performance, you know, nothing more than that. Then that'd be huge. Yeah, with the current group. So it could be just wherever they're teaching, right?
Yes, OK. Because you could take three minutes from Foster and make it great, right?
And you can tell. I mean, you can tell. If they've been to a symposium and done something — I've seen people who've done that, where they go and they get to work at a symposium — great, that's fine too. But I want to see you rehearse in your natural environment, not just do University of Michigan band. But if you don't have anybody like that, you're teaching 6th graders — go tell Aunt Rhodie, he's not making it. I mean, I understand that value also. And you need it and you have it. And I remember what all those feelings felt like when I was going through this when I was younger. You know, all of a sudden you had like a real group and it was almost overwhelming for me. Like, oh my gosh, you know. So it's so emotional. And I do think it's important for us to emphatically state that anything that is put on a vita or submitted through video needs to be real, it needs to be you, and it needs to be honest. I think we're in an age now where people think they can get by. Don't. Don't try, because you know. And I should have said this word that also when you said what are the don'ts or automatic Nos, But the some of the automatic yes gateways at least to look at are authenticity. It's what we want from everybody else, but we're afraid to do ourselves right. Exactly. Yeah. So I would like to see authenticity.
Yeah, perfect. So then so you have submitted the audition materials. You are in a round of three finalists for Doctor Mccoy's studio. She's going to take one person. How does that next step look what happens specifically at Texas Tech, but I mean.
But probably similar. Yeah, I think it's probably similar to most places. I mean, you either come. I think the way is some people have them all come on one day. I think mine, I kind of spread them out. But you come and you interact and conduct one of our ensembles and meet the other conducting people and talk to our advising people and we have a lesson and we spend some time together getting lunch or whatever. So you just kind of get a feel for The Who the person is, see what they're doing it. It's a soft skill thing. I want to see how you conduct and interact with the group. And you can tell. And Mike, I'm proud of my group too, because they've sort of been trained over time. They're pretty open. They want to see the person do well. It's not a antagonistic. We try to set that up pretty well. So it's, I know it's scary for the person coming in. It's a big deal, but I want them to feel supported and, you know, do your thing. Just let me see you. And then at that point, it's, it's a fit, you know?
It's interesting if anyone listened carefully, I hope you all did, to what you just said. It was more about who you are as a person than you are in the podium, right? So how you interact with your studio mates, how you interact with the ensemble, how you interact now obviously you have to kind of move well, but this is also true in a job interview. I've seen people like on the search committees that I've been on, people have lost the job in the social settings rather than the technical or professional settings, right? So I think how you, how you approach and prepare for that in my opinion, is critical. Do you agree?
I do agree and I and in my head I'm like, well, how do you prepare for that? It's I mean. Yeah, that's true. Maybe it's just who, who, who? Yeah, and I think that I think that probably, if I were to look back, I'm sure that I've responded to things dumb or inappropriately or whatever just because I was awkward. I mean, you know, maturity has legs. It's a real thing. But it's in terms of, I think, authenticity and curiosity. Like, those two words are pretty big, pretty big words with me And getting. You're not trying to win or beat somebody or you, you know, getting real feedback from people is, is challenging. But if you can give real feedback about what'll make you better and take you to the next play, Sure. Yeah. I you got to be able to move. You got to be a good musician, good musician, authentic, honest, good person.
Yeah, good stuff. In my in my experiences, you also have to be able to receive information.
Oh, 100%.
And because when I've, you know, grad students that I've interviewed and have come into my programs, that's been a big thing for me is how do they react when I'm giving them information? Oh yeah. Heck, are they receptive? Are they right? You know, are they, are they willing to be molded? Because that's, I mean, that's really what you're, I mean, you're going through. It's almost like sometimes it can be feel like a catastrophic change in the two to three years that you're in ADMA program or my master's program wasn't so much. So my DMA program was really pivotal for me. And you know, I left, it's really interesting when I left the DMAI think I'm a, I'm so much a better conductor now, but now it's 1012 years past. But it took a long time for me to really process everything that happened during the three years. And at the moment I finished it, yeah. I mean, I could put doctor in front of my name, but I was still figuring it out. And it took several years of me living the realities of the things I'd learned and the things that I was still processing and, and really just sort of absorbing because I couldn't just do it like it wasn't an immediate change for me. So it's me being able to take that information was.
Yeah, but it goes back to that first thing that I said about being curious. So you're clearly curious. I mean, you're, you want to learn. I mean, I've, you know, I've been doing this a hot minute, but I feel like I learn from everybody. I'll learn listening to you guys today. I learned from, I mean, it sounds cheap and easy to say I learned from my students, but I learned from my students or I learned how to say something or that worked. OK, cool. And sometimes I'll even say either not some of them tell me why that worked, make me a better teacher. Tell me why that worked for you. And so I think as long as you do, I mean, that's one of your questions. I mean, I read through the questions and I didn't prepare answers clearly, but the clearly, but the said how do they avoid burnout or something? And I'm like burnout, you know, like if you stay open and everything's a teacher, I mean, life's interesting. Like nature's interesting, books are interesting, people are interesting, passion's interesting, and all you guys are that way. And everybody that I know that's really great at doing The thing is that way.
I remember this was over a decade ago, but I was on your campus and I remember watching your rehearsal and in the rehearsal you were using. This may be an edit, Jessica, I'm just letting you know. Beautiful. We'll find out. You were using a piano to help the students with listening skills and reaction. And I left. And ever since then, I have used one in every rehearsal that I have still to this day because, I mean, you learn from everybody. I think that your point was so well stated there that you have to be curious. You have to be. You have to be open. You have to think and you have to experience, right? But you can always learn from someone.
And I think that, Yeah, I mean, I'm an idiot and I learn from my students every day. And that's a truthful sentence. I mean, I sit in meetings and I'm not the smartest person in the room and I genuinely mean that now we have more experience. You know, there's a lot going on there, but sure, it's fascinating, right? So it's, it's great.
So I, I think this is a good transition point. So after they come to you, you've done the on campus audition, you send the e-mail. Congratulations. Welcome to Texas Tech or school. Okay, what are the biggest transition or what elements of the transition just students face when they move from the undergraduate realm taught for a little bit, which I do think they should teach before going into Graduate School. I think we, yeah. And perhaps your, your, your feedback on that also in this. But when they go into a graduate program from the school system or whatever they're doing, how do they navigate those shifts? So what are the transitions that you often see and how should people kind of navigate those?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's real. And that a lot of that it depends on age too. So I have students in their 20s and I have 40 year old student right now. And so who's extremely successful and had a has or had a quite illustrious teaching for it actually. So I mean, we're fortunate to have him in a motion. He's doing wonderful work. And the ones who are in their 20s are working different transitions when they come across the country. That's a big move. You know, that's a big move. It's a big move when you leave school and go somewhere else. It's a big move. So that in and of itself is a transition. If you're going from, I'm thinking master's degrees, if you're going from teaching and you know what that's like and it's a, you know, all day long in a very structured environment to some degree time wise. And all of your energy, all of your energy is going, all of your energy is helping other people. All of your energy is taking care of everybody else. And in school you have responsibilities, but all of a sudden your face looks like, wow, OK, what do I want? Kind of gets back to that question of what like, well, you have responsibilities, but it feels different in a way. When I did my masters, I was like, Oh my God, this is so much easier than like real life. I'm like this is so much easier it is. I had so much time on my hands, I have so much time. This is so fun, and I remember that really clearly kind of both times because I taught and then went to get my masters. I taught, I got my Doctor, but I'm like, great, because it's not you all the time. Give, give, give, give, give, give, give, give that you were time. There was more balance. You got to think about things that you don't normally have time to think about. If I went back today, I would know more of what I would want to do, I think, or have the mechanism by which to think about it. So in that aspect, it's a wonderful thing. It's also hard for people the longer they've done the thing, if they've been teaching, I think the longer they've done it, it's a, it's more jarring, but it's, it's a bigger difference, I guess. You know what I do at this time, like they don't know what to quite do with it or what do I want out of it or I've already done some of this in another degree. How does this get better here? I think about stuff like that. So some I'm teaching Winlit next semester. We opened it up to some, a couple other grad students. So I have one grad student who's taken it over just to do it just for fun. A couple other people who've had it at other places and stuff, but they have to do it here. We have two other doctoral students who are just take it or stuff. So I've got like 6, I don't know, 5 or 6 people in this thing, and a master's student who hasn't had it at all. And so I'm trying to figure out versus me just teaching when lit, how I can take that collection of people and capitalize on their experiences and stuff too. So the people who've had it, I know where they feel their holes are and where they feel they're strong and how I can sort of move that around a little bit. So to help make it an experience for them that's better than just taking the, you know what I mean? So I kind of hollied off of that question a little bit. I'm trying to think what else is it? The lack of money is kind of a bummer. I mean, it's not. Nobody's getting nobody's. I do remember that nobody's getting rich going to grad school. If you are, I'd love to go, but nobody starved to death either, so it's a sacrifice they make and that's a hard adjustment for people. And it's, I think sometimes it's important to ask the questions about the like financial piece and benefits piece and tuition piece, but those are all really important things. There are important pieces because you have to be able to make it work. People do everywhere, everywhere. But you have to be ready for that too. Some people save, some people take out loans, some people work a little bit, some people already have it covered. Whatever, whatever that puzzle piece is, but it is a puzzle piece that needs to be negotiated and the longer you've lived as an adult. The more challenging that is.
The more challenging it is. So then, Sarah, for our people, for our listeners that, that may not quite know exactly what we're talking about. What is with an assistantship? What does that include? Like if I'm accepted into the Texas Tech conducting studio, what does that? How does that look in terms of the actual kind of physical nuts and bolts of the package?
The actual physical numbers, I don't know. I just told somebody the other day that I would give them my students and stuff who actually live with it and know what they get. And you know, they live with that more than I do. You can see it on a piece of paper on a website. So it means less, but you'll get a stipend or a an amount of money and your tuition waive and those sorts of things. And there's also benefits with that. Now you get health benefits for graduate students, which is great. And then we have the ability to through the Graduate School. There are other fellowships on top of that, that even if it's someone has AGTA and you want to apply for funding for a fellowship on top of that, which gives you an extra depending upon what award it is amount another layer of that. And I've used that before with people to kind of help make them feel more like adults financially and not worry so much. So that's all been helpful. So that's kind of what happens, you know, and then they take care of all that sort of stuff. I mean, Texas, if you're asking Texas Tech specifically, you know, the cost of living is low. That helps, you know, the actually the tuition dollar goes a long way. I mean, we don't have that, but they it's not bad. It's not probably the highest I've seen ones that are like it looks like an exorbitant amount, but it like when you really take a look at the what's under the hood, it's it's different because of how much either tuition cost or how much this is or so.
So then are there are there a program Sarah where an assistantship is not attached?
I have taken students before where I didn't have an assistantship to give and actually the it's only been a couple times because I, but I had a student that really wanted to come and I really like them and they were teaching elementary school like band. But I love their mind and I love their questions and I loved God, I really like them. And they were, and it was for our masters. And I'm like, you're so hungry, like just wants to learn. And that person, so proud of them because they came in, they were not a very good conductor at the time. They somehow listen to everything I said, and we're the kind of person would write it all down and just come. Back. So much better and went and then got a six a job and what they wanted to do a six from doing what they were doing out of state to a six a job and the Metroplex and was assistant and now the head director. And so they're doing what they wanted to do and so they can definitely be done. It again is what kind of learner are you That was a good fit. Now there for anybody listening, there are our financial ramifications of that. And as that you're going through the project, you have to be sure that it's the correct thing financially for you. But the option does exist in, in some places at least, to ultimately do that.
Did you guys work extra in grad school when you were in school?
In my master's I did, but it was music related, so I was writing drill on the side, which would make me, you know, I'd make 1520 K doing that. And then in the summer, during that time of my life, I was teaching drum corps. So it, that didn't pay very much, but it paid a little. I mean, it took care of housing and food during the summer, so I didn't have time. What am I doing during the summer? But holistically it paid for almost everything. But then I did take out some loans for my master's in my doctorate. I didn't work, but I had enough set aside and I was able to kind of manage it again. I was older, right? I was. I had already. I taught high school, then to my master's, and then taught college for seven years before going back for the doctor. You went back for your DMA. Yeah. So I've been. That's different. Excuse me. So I had been at. Yeah, I'd already talked to college for seven years. So, yeah, yeah. You know, it's kind of, it's moved around a little bit, but I was in a position then that I could more happily afford it where I wasn't when I was leaving high school teaching.
I didn't work for either of the degrees, but I was, I was in a special situation, I guess. But it was, it felt like I was working hundreds of hours a week in the BAM program and then going to Graduate School. Of course you know but.
Well, and that's, I wanted to jump to that too, because we, I, because in both of my degrees it was, it felt like a lot of work and especially my DMA, like there was three of us, there are three Tasmania teaching assistants and we worked our tails off like setting up rehearsals, tearing down rehearsals, copping parts, doing part assignments, like it was pretty unending. It felt that way at least I was at school a lot. So I'm curious from your perspective as the director, how do you encourage your graduate students to balance, because we talked about balance just a minute ago, but balance the academic rigors because UMKC was academically, academically rigorous, the podium time. Then we talked about self growth, musical curiosity, all of that. There's a lot to, to really balance in there. And I, I know for me there were times that it was very stressful. It's hard to balance. Yeah. So how do you encourage your students in that area?
I think if we try from our end, the parts that we have control over that I have control over is trying to not dump everything administratively on them. So we have a, you know, and librarians, they do that. They mean they may need help, but they don't do part assignment. So I do part assignment. So our guys do part assignment. So they do, you know how it works? I mean, they do take care of a lot of things for us. They do setups for groups, tear downs, but we try to put K side people in there or other systems and help her situation. So it's not like one person's setting up and tearing down an ensemble. You know, it's like a 5 minutes you're done. But it's part of the rehearsal thing. We let we don't let them, but it's they get to do conducting classes, but we put them on a rotation so they don't have to be there every single conducting thing, but they're going to go out and probably teach conducting. So we want them to see what our undergraduate conducting curriculum is like, but we put them on a rotation so they don't have to do that. It used to be that they would go to our marching band mirrors is five days a week. So it used to be that they would go five days a week and I'm like, that's too much. They don't need that. So we cut that down to do you need a Monday, Wednesday or Friday? You need them Tuesday and Thursday, of course, stadium rehearsal, of course game days. But when do you need them? Do you need it on the short rehearsal day block, Monday, Wednesday, Friday's 50 minute block or hour and 20 minute block? Tell me and then I'll do seminar on the other two. So they only have to go the you know, I think they go Tuesday, Thursday to marching band and Monday, Wednesday, Friday they're in seminar. So that block is covered. So it's not like they have to. And marching band has a lot of help built into the structure, which I'm sure does at Michigan too. But they're there, they help out. They're the, you know, the next adult in charge, you know, and they go on the trips and they do all the things and they enjoy it. I mean, it's a, it's a fun thing sometimes it's not as responsibility driven.
Right. They go well. You mentioned marching band. I'm I wouldn't even think about you. My DMAI went to a Conservatory so we didn't have March.
Oh yeah, you don't have. That looking back, I'm like, wow, I'm so thankful I didn't have to do that too because I was already stressed out.
That's very interesting. So you mentioned like the rehearsal setup, and I meant that as well. Is there a reason? I'm just curious from perspective, why is that important? Why is it important for a graduate student, graduate student to set up an ensemble? What are they learning from that?
It's not really that important that they're learning from it. It's a need that in depending upon where you, where you go, we don't have a space that is just set up permanently for an ensemble because it's just space, space allocation. So if you did, if you had a band hall and it was set up or a stage or whatever that's set up, we, those things are being used 24/7, at least in our school. So sometimes you'll have back-to-back large ensembles and all you have to do is tweak some numbers. That's easy. But in general, once we get done with, you know, percussion or loading in, we're setting up chairs in the hall, we're getting that done and then that has to be done. And if we're the ones at the end of the day or the cycle, then that needs to be going down. So we do have kids that help with all that stuff and it's pretty mechanized. I mean, it's not that long. It's just bodies and responsibility of need I help sometimes.
At UMKC for me and I so I would just want to throw this in there because I didn't do that as much in my master's degree, but in my doctoral degree we did. And I, but then when I began teaching college at the next level after that was something I had my grad students do as well. But I don't know that it would have coming out of my master's. But I found that it for me at least, I was kind of giving them information about how the room needs to look like. For me, the environment was really important. And like with Steve Davis, like other room, like we wanted it to be literally perfect when he walked in the room, like he went to the podium and music was made during the time. He didn't worry about that thing. Not that I wanted my students. I did. I don't want Doctor Clement to worry about thing. No, I just want them to be aware of that. This room is really a special place. This is where the magic happens. And it needs to be an environment that when the students, the performers walk in, it's perfect for them. It's ready to go. They're not worried about finding a chair or a stand or stuff like that. So for me, that was actually kind of a learning. It was a learning and like that is a learning thing. There was an expectation there that was important to me, I guess, to share with my students after the fact. And I don't know that I would have done that had it not been such a high priority at the time. And I don't know if that was from Steve or just what prior graduate assistants had done. And that's just the way we did it. I really couldn't tell you.
Yeah, I did learn from it.
No, I mean that makes total sense and in the in the purest absolute like if I could you know, wave a magic wand IA 100% believe in that have the space have it be calm have people come in be able to warm up take your time. This is a thing the you get up there to go do your thing and this is this is your time. You get their brains sort of like where the needs to be in the space to make music. And that time, yes, that is a noble goal of what we should be doing. In reality, at least for us, some of the kids, like on Monday, Wednesday, Friday this semester, have a marching band from 12:00 to 12:50 in the afternoon. That's when they meet. And at 1:00 they have wind ensemble. Yeah, so they're running from one place.
Of the Yeah, the drum majors are in my group, so.
That's a tough transition for sure.
Stuff. And they do it better than I would have done it. Yeah. Then I would have done it. So the progression are coming in the my guys get all set up. Nobody's looking for a chair stand. It's done. But that kind of calm, this is your space. Enjoy your warm up and get your brain where it needs to be is like. Yeah. And then I have 50 minutes.
You know. Again, I was at a Conservatory so. So no, no. No, I. Different thing there, yeah, I mean.
Yeah, how like we approach it here. Now our, our setups are, are a bit different in terms of structure, but our graduate student instructors, we approach what they do as their job. They are hired to do a job. So if it's setting up ladders, that is a job function. If it is an instructional piece, it is a job function. So the skill set that they are learning is that in my opinion are all the professional skills no matter how small or how big you know, I mean they are critical to the operational success, right which we all have the structure.
I mean even you as that's true that's.
A good point. A director man's you answer to the Dean, answers to the Provost, to the to the president, chancellor, to the to the Board of Regents. I mean, there's a structure for all of us, right? So that's a really critical skill set. And where things come into play sometimes is we have we have unbelievably talented graduate students and they are off doing things all over the world. Sometimes they conflict. How I mean, that happens to us too, right? You have an honor man. You've been also all and your collage partner. I can't do it. So you're teaching them how to how to navigate those things. And by the way, at the end of the day, it's their job.
Well, there is that and they've been, I will say over time, I didn't think of it in so much. It's true in so much as it is a job, but it is a job and recent history. We have to actually every faculty member has to quantify their 20 hours of things like and the band One of course, is easy, right, Of course. But to your point, the thing that made me think is we already know recordings have to be set up, chairs need to be set up. All the things that it takes to do band, let alone athletic band, which is it's a whole other beast. But we know what that is. We know how to load a bus. We know how to, you know, do it efficiently. We know how to move 400 people efficiently and easily. I've always said like when I'm in a, even in a like a big faculty meeting, like if everybody would have had like 10 minutes of band in their life, sounds so arrogant, like things would go quicker. They would. All right, piano faculty, here we go. No orchestra, I promise you it's not that hard. So like.
Yeah, it's it's so all those.
Things it's.
Funny. There it's also true, like there's a systems mechanics or the things that need to happen. If you've never experienced that somehow in your life and somebody's just done it and you get out to be the one in charge and you've not had experience with it, that could be a problem. Yeah, right.
Well, I, I probably shouldn't ask the question because we now we've digressed about setting up chairs for quite some time for the listeners that are out there. Like when you go to grad school, if you have an assistantship, there are going to be some other responsibilities. There's they're, they're work job related. But just to wrap it all up, they're really important. And if you find ways to build value into them, why am I doing this? How am I helping this whole machine work? Well, it serves the music at the end of the day, and that's why. That's why we do.
It we go back to.
School. You serve the music. You serve the students. Higher level, so you.
Serve people. We're in the people business. You are serving a program something bigger than yourself. It's not just about you like it never is. Spoiler alert, when you get out and you get your job, that's the same other duty as a something. I mean other duties as.
A. Something other.
Duties.
Actually, let's transition with this point into kind of misconceptions because I, I think these go hand in hand. Just which also, by the way, just to wrap up what we're just talking about in, in our office, we say every day is a gift. You're going to learn something every single day, whether you want every day is a gift. Okay, so misconceptions, do you have any common or do you, are you aware of any common misconceptions about graduate study and about graduate conducting programs that would be helpful to alleviate or just to kind of just to kind of shed some a light on in case anyone's curious?
Misconceptions about grad programs or graduate studies maybe.
I think the only one that I can really think of that would be kind of when we talked early on in this podcast about if you are thinking if I do this and if I do this and if I do this, it equals director bands of the University of Michigan. That's not always the case. And I would say that I'm just upfront with people about like where we are at the profession. There's more people with doctorates and degrees than there are jobs. I mean, that's just for real. That's just real.
That's very true.
And as if you're comfortable with that, great. There's always room. I mean, if you're comfortable with that, great. If you're comfortable with coming back to school and getting better. And it, it does put you in a place or a position or whatever to be eligible to take a next step, but it doesn't ensure it. I can't, you know, so I think some people think everything is connections. I, I did say relationships are important. They are with teaching with everything but Shaker Networker. I think you know, this is going to do it. Or if I do this and this and this and it's getting up, I have a hard time thinking that way. And I understand it. But I think you'll lose less sleep if you just worry about getting better and becoming a better you and letting the chips fall where they may.
Yep, absolutely. So looking at the conductors that you've mentored, I'm curious, what patterns do you see in those that are that they thrive after when they're done, they've done their graduate study and they go on to build what a meaningful career, whatever that looks like. Have you seen patterns that are happening while they're with you?
Yeah, they're grateful, you know, they're grateful. They're I keep saying this about curious. They want to do things. I'm trying to think like recent history. Let's talk about Kirsten. Let's talk about Kirsten. She's a former student of mine. So I'm going to bring her up because I, I, she was a, as an undergraduate, she was, I, I would say curious, like she was always positive and, and willing to do, go do things. She was, I mean, she's a leader in the program.
So what? What did it look like with her being in your program?
I got a person. Strength. High person. So I think her strengths are that, you know, she wants to, she's a people person and she's a people pleaser and she was good at engaging students and getting that excited about stuff. She's very popular with students, particular athletic band stuff. I don't think it started this way, but it ended this way that she wanted to wind up doing more athletic band stuff. So I think she found that niche a little bit and I think she's well suited to that. She's very responsible. So I think the responsibility of all those extra dynamics that you have to be able to take care of and making sure that the students are having a great time. You know, it's a largely non major experience, but I mean athletic band, like if you did the Margie band or and she just loves that and loves the energy of that and the all the things that go with that. She loves that. Yeah, that's fantastic. So I think those sorts of things she's well sued for.
That's perfect. I was excited to see her working with Shanti in Colorado.
Oh, no, that's going to be great. And I hope it all works out. We've all got our fingers crossed.
Yeah, absolutely. We've got big changes happening out.
There. Yeah, a lot.
You know, it's just hearing all of this. I, I think some other traits for anyone, anyone listening when they're considering, you know, their own self, a reflection and how they engage with others. I think having an ego is the death of everything, as you said at the beginning. Secondly, being awkward. Try not to be awkward. Whatever.
That yeah, I think I was awkward. I think I was a little. Awkward. I mean, the first time in my life, you know, I mean, I was awkward too.
How? Yeah, I think we all are. You know, we do band for our job. It's a great thing. Also.
I think you have to be comfortable in your own skin too. So you know, the, the feeling of awkwardness is I, this is completely a sigh. But when I stepped into the private sector, one of the things that I ended up doing a whole lot of was online videos. And one of the first things I went to a master class and the person was like, why don't you want to be in the be on camera? While people are afraid of this? Like, well, I'm just afraid the way, the way I look and the person stopped and said, the way you look cannot be changed. It's the way you look. Just do the thing, get on the video and say what you got to say. And it's very similar, I think, in the teaching world of being on the podium, like you are who you are. And we can, I mean, we can obviously learn and we can shift and, and build our experiences so forth. But that feeling of awkwardness is that's more about what you're thinking about yourself than what everybody else is perceiving. So you just have to set that aside and do the thing of course.
You know, of course, but that's hard that.
Yeah, it's hard. For me, I will say I was a slow learner in that or slow getter to where I am, but I think that all is born out of like there's a level of insecurity with everybody when they're doing this and they're being looked at and you're trying to be better, you know, and we it's not taking yourself too seriously, but it's like you want to be good. You know, you want to do the thing and it's an emotional piece. It's not Stampin widgets. It's a subjective. It's a subjective thing and people sometimes define their entire self worth by it. That's a bad thing too. Like if your band plays out of tune, you're a horrible person. Just figure out how to make your band play into like, like, it's not. You're not a horrible person. And it's I, I think we all need to remember in like incoming people to the profession, current in the profession and to the profession. It's a very small world. It's a very small, very small world. So be careful what you say.
Also true. Also true.
I think this it sounds dumb but just be kind and just try and do the thing I mean. If you just do your job. I've told people this, I've told my Tasmania and it's probably but at the end of the day you have you to look in the mirror and say did I do my best today, did I rehearse well? Did I treat people OK, was I prepared? And if the answer is yes, even if you've had a bad day, good. Rinse and repeat. Get ready for the next day. If one of those is like, well, I could have done it, OK, OK. And it's really you and yourself in the mirror having that. I don't have anybody else telling me. I don't have anybody else be my cheerleader. Don't have anybody else doing the thing. It's you. And it gets down to that level of authenticity. I had somebody introduce me at a conference one time and they said, well, those of us who know Sarah know that she really does it her own way. And I'm thinking. Wow, what? Are they talking about and I love this person I. Have no idea. I still don't know. And I gave him a hug. I'm like, oh, I love you, but like, I have no idea what you meant. OK, here we go. Yeah, I don't know. I just don't know what that means. But it's OK because it's authentic. It's authentic.
I love that. So the three words, I just really stuck out from this whole conversation here. Be authentic, be curious, be kind. Those are great starts. Those three things, if you start looking toward your a grad program with those three as sort of your guiding principles, you're going to be OK.
And figure out and try to get your the music pieces not lost. I mean, like, how do you become a good musician? You know, in a, in an undergraduate conducting class, I don't teach it anymore, but in an undergraduate conducting class, I used to talk about like a triangle. And if you have music is kind of the center, you have mind, body and soul as the points of your triangle mind. I would put, I would ask kids like, what do you think conductors do? And they're like, oh, be time. Oh, interpret whatever they say. You have to know composers, you have to study, OK, Oh, you have to be a good musician. OK, so whatever they would say, I could pretty much put in one of these three buckets and music's in the middle and say, OK, how do you expand on bot on body? That could be physical or you know, conducting supposed to How do you do the mind? Are you curious learner, your music theory, your music history, your going to school? How do you prove that soul, my body and soul like your depth? How do you, how do you become a deeper human being? I said That's a life thing. Right. Life, yeah. And, you know, I'm way deeper than I was as an undergraduate or graduate student. Like, how do you keep doing that? And if you keep doing that, that triangle gets a little bigger, doesn't always, doesn't always grow at the same rate. But that to me is sort of a living, breathing thing that we all do. And it's hard to sort of quantify it, but that made sense to people.
So we are wrapping up our time and we, we ask all of our guests 3 standing questions. But before we do that, I for anybody listening, if you have doubt, if you are unsure about whether this is going to be right for you and Sarah, do you have any thoughts on this? My opinion is it's like the old hockey adage, you are going to miss 100% of shots that you don't take.
You don't take. Yep, I agree with that and I would also say I've told used another analogy of life or your decision making is going down a hall and you've got doors and windows on each side. Going through either one of those things very rarely closes something behind you. You just enter, you come in a different space, you know, or if you need to go back, like there's no, it very rarely is a closed deal, right? They're just possibilities.
All right, so now our three standing questions that we ask all of our guests, I will, I will take the first one. Do you have a soapbox topic, Sarah?
A soapbox topic. Like what my thing is soapbox topic, if I did it was it would probably be a little bit of what we're talking about. I'm I'm not a big soapboxer, but I would die on the hill being authentic and just trying to do what we do with good integrity. Integrity is kind of a soapbox.
OK, thank. You that's a good one. Are there is there a book or particular books that you have read over your journey that have inspired you?
Oh. A lot and then on the gosh a lot there's probably so I'm behind. You have to think of something. I just got the creative act that's good. All those behind me are good. I'm inspired by a lot of different things. I mean, so you can read about like music and those sorts of things that are creative or, you know, the leadership books, you know, that are good. I also like was I haven't read these in a while, but remember reading them and being so inspired by my Angel. Yeah, right. Yeah, every single word. She's ever. She's just so wise. Like her perspective when you talk about integrity of people and like all the stuff you know, you go through and how do those people go through these things and come on this side of the filter like bitter not there's just a wisdom about it. I love that and thinking a lot about how people adapt to adversity and how I love that.
Yeah, my Maya Angelou's fantastic.
Oh, she's sober.
So then Sarah, our final question and probably the most important what's? That question. What's your favorite time signature?
54. 54. 54 we, I, I don't think we've gotten A54. Before not yet in. I just said it. I love it. I don't even know what the paper but if I had a reason. Why his name? Actually, I think I think. Little asymmetry, Little unexpected.
Michael Doherty said 54. He did. Michael Doherty said 54 So you're in company's market company.
OK. Well, that's right. So I think 54 is great. 7-8 works. Yeah, 7-8 was Jerry Junkins. He was a 7-8's actually been our top. Yeah, 7-8. I like that one because you have a little more flexibility because you're in compound, you've got some more thing 54IS. OK, so I go 7-8. Yeah, I'm thinking about. It so well the correct answer was common time. That's just when we get that out there.
So hey, Sarah, thank you so much for your time today. It's been fantastic just to having you on and getting to talk about an important topic that we've all been involved with and spent so much time around. So we really appreciate it.
Appreciate it. Thanks so much.
All right, we'll see you soon. That's it for today's episode of the Common Time Podcast. And thank you for spending time with us. We hope that today's conversation will give you something useful to take back to your students and your program. And if you enjoyed this episode, make sure you subscribed so you don't miss what's coming up. And if you know another director who might benefit from this, please share it with them. Also, don't forget you're able to nominate a music educator for our Standing Ovation program. The link to submit is in the show notes below. Thanks again for joining us on the Common Time podcast. As always, keep making music and keep making a difference.