Hi everybody, and welcome back to Season 3 of the Common Time podcast. We're so glad to have you here to continue bringing our conversations, insights, and inspiration for music educators everywhere. Each week, we'll highlight voices from across the music world and share ideas that you can bring directly into your classroom and to your ensembles. And now let's turn to our guest. Our guest today is Michael Doherty. Welcome, Michael.
Glad to be here.
So Michael is a six time Grammy award-winning composer and one of the most commissioned, performed and recorded composers on the American concert music scene today. We're really excited to have him with us. John, why don't you get us started?
Thanks, David. Hi Michael, always good to see you. So I'm just going to dive right in by asking — every composer develops a unique voice. So what experiences or any influences have shaped your own compositional style?
Well, I think collaboration has always been something that has entered into all my music going back to when I was a kid. I had a rock band called the Soul Company. I played piano with the concert choir. I was played in jazz groups and so forth. Also teaching is a collaboration. When I have a private student teaching composition, I view it not that I'm going to teach them something, but it's a collaboration between two people. And I think over the years I've enjoyed working with conductors and one of the things I like about wind ensemble music is the fantastic conductors I've met over the years, both at the middle school, high school and college level. Those conductors always seem to want input and collaboration. And that's something that has marked my music. And so when I'm writing, I'm thinking about the conductor, I'm thinking about the performers. And I think collaboration has been a very important part of my thinking.
Yeah, I love that you were in a rock band. So how long were you in the rock band?
Well, let's see, I was in the Soul Company — that was high school, so for like 3 or 4 years. And I was also in drum and bugle corps. I was in a corps called the Grenadiers and then they folded, and then the Emerald Knights in Cedar Rapids, IA. And I remember marching against the Cavaliers. The Emerald Knights had a score of 33.5 and the Cavaliers had a score of 99.2. One of the most exciting things I can remember is when the Cavaliers played a work I wrote called Niagara Falls. We actually went to the performance in Chicago — this is like 20 some years ago — but I think they won the DCI that year around 2000. And that show is quite well known. I remember as they were marching past the stands, I turned to a guy next to me and said, yeah, you know, I wrote the music they were playing. He goes, yeah, and I'm president of the United States. I'll never forget that. But drum corps is something that has influenced me — I tend to have big endings, and I think every drum corps piece, you know, the horns go in a straight line and come blasting down. That's always been something that has influenced my music probably.
Right. Yeah, I love that connection. So a lot of your music draws inspiration from American cultural figures — Rosa Parks, Jackie Onassis and so forth — or even pop culture and film. So I'm curious, how do you choose the subjects that end up becoming the heart of your works?
Well, you can't see my studio, but I have a huge antique store in my studio of everything from a Superman lunchbox to Star Trek paraphernalia to autographs of famous composers and Hollywood film stars. And everything I write is inspired by things that I have connected to or like. So growing up in the Fifties, 60s and 70s as a young composer, many of the figures I've picked have come from that time period. I was always a big fan of Charles Ives, Aaron Copland, Bernstein — composers whose music reflected the time they were in. And I think that's what we see with all great music: the music reflects the time that they're in, whether it's Vienna in 1820 or America in the 1950s.
Yeah, I mean, that's something that I relate to — music connecting to the time that you're living in. So then, Michael, speaking of that, many people I would argue would characterize your music as both deeply accessible but richly complex. So how do you approach balancing the sophistication for the musicians but also a connection to the audience?
Yeah, that's an interesting question. You know, complexity — what is complex? I think that ironically, I studied with many of the most well known avant-garde 20th century composers, from György Ligeti to Pierre Boulez and these sorts of composers that wrote very complex abstract music. But I think narrative is something that I've always connected with, and it's something that I think the audience can connect with too. So a recent piece I wrote, The Adventures of Jesse Owens, for example, or I just wrote a piece called Dreams of Dali — as in Salvador Dali — or another piece about Andy Warhol and so forth. Picking subject matters that I relate to, but also that other listeners can relate to as well. As far as the complexity, I do write with a lot of counterpoint, and I've always thought it's important that scores have a lot of detail and interest in the score itself. So the narrative is just one layer, one layer of the polyphony, so to speak. But on top of that, there has to be the music too. And being accessible — I grew up in Iowa, and I've always thought it's important to be very matter of fact and not to beat around the bush. But you can be abstract to a certain degree, and I think my music is like that. It's concert music — it doesn't need a visual, it doesn't need dance to go with it. It actually is made to be a self-sustaining thing, which means that my music has to be the visuals, the dialogue, the sound effect — it has to be everything in a sense. So the complexity comes from putting all those things together.
I'm just thinking — I want to jump back for just a second. I was thinking about the pop culture and the different things. So I think the first time I heard your music was the Metropolis Symphony. I was very young at the time, and I wasn't even thinking in terms of band or orchestra or anything. I just saw the cover art, which was really appealing to me. In fact, almost all of your pieces have really unique cover art. But was that piece sort of the big breakout piece for you that kind of changed everything, or was there something different? I remember seeing that and thinking this is the greatest thing ever — and then what happened next is now we have a huge body of work from you. So I'm just curious, was that when it started?
I have a comic book right here, actually. So backing up — when I was a kid, you see here an original Superman comic book from the 1950s. I used to read these comic books and then I started to collect them. And really, the Superman myth is a mythology, right? So it really lent itself to a narrative story. So we moved through Lex Luthor — Lex, his foe — to Krypton, to Mister Mxyzptlk, who's the imp from the 5th dimension — that's the guy who causes havoc — and of course Lois Lane, and then the death of Superman, Red Cape Tango, which was made into a band piece. I was very lucky because that was recorded by several orchestras, and most recently the Metropolis Symphony recording by Nashville was the one that won three Grammys. And anyway, so that's something that tied into my childhood, and it seemed to resonate with people.
Yeah, it absolutely has. And you mentioned the band just a moment ago — that movement was written for band. So you've written for a wide range of ensembles: band, orchestra, chamber music, soloists and so forth. What draws you to writing for the wind band in particular, and what opportunities does that give you that other mediums don't?
Well, I think that generally the orchestra world is a professional world. So you're dealing with constraints of rehearsal time and so forth. It's hard to do recordings because of union rules and so forth. With wind ensemble music, it's a much freer environment, much more rehearsal time. You can easily record the groups and get your music out there posted on YouTube and so forth, which with orchestra is very hard to do. So I think the accessibility of wind ensemble for composers is attractive. Also, when I was a kid, I remember Frederick Fennell came to college once and he conducted Sousa marches, and that was my thinking of what band music was at the time. And then when I came to Michigan, I met Bob Reynolds, who was interested in commissioning composers who hadn't written for band — he didn't want band pieces. And I think that was a time where the boundaries were being pushed and composers were really starting to write for band music. And when I write for band, I'm really writing for orchestra but for band, and when I'm writing for orchestra, I'm really thinking of band writing. So I'm kind of switching the way you think. My pieces really don't sound like band pieces in a sense, because I think I write in a more orchestral way.
Yeah, I would agree with that completely. And I have told you this before, but every honor band I do, every All-State band I do, I always program a piece of yours because it's so well written — it is complex but accessible, and it is so well thought through, which I don't think is always the case from composers in our field. Which is why I'm always fascinated whenever you put out a new piece — I can't wait to program it. So I do look forward to the upcoming term where I can certainly look at some of your upcoming stuff. But I do have a question — a follow up about collaboration. You were talking about the collaborative process, which I think is such an important part of the artistic exchange. Are you able to dive into this just a bit more about how to effectively collaborate — a conductor-composer collaboration, or conductor-composer-soloist, or some combination — to help the final product be as outstanding as it can possibly be?
Sure. Well, for those conductors out there who are thinking about commissioning a composer, one thing you could do is workshop the piece. So when I've worked with Bob Reynolds and also Michael Haithcock here at Michigan on a new piece, let's say two months before the premiere, we might do a reading session — read the piece down and record it, and I'll listen to it. Then I'll go back and perhaps make changes: some cuts, some changes in the orchestration and so forth. Or, I've written a new piece called Cadillac Ranch that Texas Tech is going to premiere with Sarah McQueen conducting. So I'll be there at the first rehearsal Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and they're going to do a recording session with the concert on Sunday. Having the composer there — I will be at every rehearsal. After the first one, I listen to it, I might make some adjustments. It's important to record the rehearsal so the composer can listen to it, come back the next day and say, maybe four trumpets, let's put in straight mutes, or cut these four bars or whatever. So the collaborative process involves having the composer there and giving them a chance to listen to the piece, with enough time for changes to be made, because usually there's always something that comes up that you need to change. Also, the conductor should be very clear about the instrumentation needed and the length wanted, and once in a while, if the conductor wants, you could send the score — here's where I am — and they can listen to it. Just having feedback and being in touch with the conductor and with the composer, as opposed to the composer just showing up for the world premiere. It's better if you build into the package that they are there for a number of rehearsals so that there can be some feedback if needed and changes if needed.
I remember when we workshopped your Jesse Owens piece because I was conducting that during that time. And I remember you in the room going, trumpets, why don't we articulate it this way instead. And I said, wow — watching this creative process happen in real time was absolutely fascinating.
And it's also fun for the students too.
Absolutely. Yeah, to see and hear the process. And that's what I was about to mention — that student experience has got to be pretty cool as well, for them to have you in the room but also to see that happening in real time. Like, no, this is what I really want to hear — you're processing that and they get to see it happen. Like the genius at work, and getting to see that as well.
Yeah. And it can also help to have a MIDI version. I use Sibelius, and for my sounds I use a program called Note Performer, which is very good and doesn't cost too much actually. And I will send a MIDI version to the conductor — an MP3 — which they can then send to the band so they can hear a kind of mock up of what the piece sounds like. And this is also very helpful.
Yeah, absolutely. You know, bringing the students into it — I think it's just great for our listeners to understand that composers enjoy that process of being in the room and speaking with them and having those conversations and collaborating. So along that same kind of thought, as someone who has music that is played by both student and professional ensembles, do you think differently or work differently in terms of challenge when inspiring performances at different levels? Do you think differently about a piece for high school versus professional?
Well, that's interesting. I know there's in band music a grading system, which I've never been a fan of personally. I don't really think, well this is grade 2 or this is grade 4 — I don't really think that way, frankly. So I wrote a piece actually for this summer called Dona Nobis Pacem, and that's probably a grade four piece, but I wasn't thinking that I'm going to write an easy piece. Every piece I write, I want it to be something that I'll be proud to hear, no matter who plays it. The level of sophistication is always the same as I'm writing.
Do you write any for younger students?
Well, the Dona Nobis Pacem is a piece for younger bands. It was commissioned by Glenn Adsit, the late Glenn Adsit, for the Aspire Consortium — he put together the idea of writing pieces that could be played by high school bands and younger bands. So it's funny — when my daughter was in middle school, I wrote a piece called Alligator Alley for the middle school here in Ann Arbor, Slauson Middle School. It's in five-four time, and I didn't realize that it's very rare to have a piece in five-four time, especially for that age group. But they were actually able to play it fine. And it's also played by high schools and at the college level too. So it was written for middle school and they could actually play it.
Yeah, that's a great piece. I've used it several times on honor band performances — kids always love it. And what's really unusual is that it's in five-four time. You almost never see a piece at high school or middle school level in five-four time.
The landscape of music education and performance is evolving rapidly just because of the times that all of us are currently living in. So where do you see the role of contemporary composers, especially in our medium, heading in the upcoming decade or two? Like, where is this thing going?
Yeah, well, it's really hard to forecast where things are going as far as music. And I know that's a question composers are asked often, but I'm very optimistic. I think that music survives no matter what — in all the wars of the past, the economic issues or problems, music somehow continues to thrive. I think it's just part of who we are. And it's something that everybody needs. Certainly in Texas it's not an issue — when I go to Texas and hear those bands play down there, I'm thinking, oh my goodness. So I think music is alive and well. But yeah, I'm sure there'll be some adjustments made. And I know that many composers now are looking at social, social, you know, issues to be part, to be part of their music, you know, which is fine. But I think it's AI think. I'm optimistic about the future of music. I think. And it's important that composers continue to write. My only red flag would be for composers not to write too many pieces too quickly. You know, like writing three or four pieces a year. That's a bit of a stretch. You know, I usually write one piece maybe every two years or one piece a year at the most. So I think it's good to make sure you take time so that each piece is unique and has some has some depth to it.
Right, that's. Great. Do you? It's interesting that you say that because I know there are composers that put out a lot of music rather quickly. Do you think that affects the depth of what that music will be in the future? Like will it stay around? Will it stick?
I know it's interesting, you know, if you look at the history of film actors and you'll see like a particular actor, like a Harrison Ford might be known for like 5 or 6 movies, but they made maybe like 60 movies and a lot of them, like, I've never heard of that film, right? So, you know, I think that there's two approaches when you just turn out a lot of stuff and you see what sticks to the wall, so to speak. It's up to, I think it's up to the composer to know they get that, that they, they have given his or her best effort. I think that's important if, if you feel inside, yes, I haven't compromised, I've written the best piece I possibly can, then I think it's, it's, it's OK to release it. But I think if you have doubts about it or I got the deadline, I just got to finish it, you know, I don't know. I think that probably 1 won't be as satisfied with the result.
Yeah, gotcha. So. Can I ask just as a follow up and I've, I've always been curious as to the perspective that you have. So I think the hardest part of our job as conductors is choosing quality repertoire. What is a good piece to you? What makes a really good piece of music? Tough one, but here we are.
Here, Well, I, I think I'm attracted to music when there's a particular idea that is then is obvious and then is developed. I've always, you know, been fascinated by, you know, Bach, how he's able to how he was able to write those feuds and inventions and so forth. And then to develop or Gustav Mahler. It was amazing it, you know, taking, you know, writing these half an hour movements based basting off 2 two or three teams, the tunes or, you know, or like a Miles Davis, you know, how he was able to come up with these great tunes or melodies or John Coltrane or so forth and then develop those ideas. So I think developing is important and it's also good to take some risks occasionally and to maybe write a piece that is not a Commission just to write a piece to something that you want to write. I think that can be important as well.
Do you ever write something and be like crumple? Nope.
Sometimes I'm writing a piece and it turns out that's not the piece I was writing. I was really composing a different work. But I tend to work pretty much on one piece at one time. I don't write two or three things at the same time. And, and I, I, I have to come up with the concept and the title first, so I know what it's going to be about. So that's that, that's important for me. So I know what it is I'm trying to say.
Yeah, gotcha. I'm curious for our young composers or educators that are listening, do you have advice or something you could share about how they can bring new music to life and make it meaningful for the performers and audiences? Like what advice would you have?
Well, I think going to live performances is really important. If you can play in the ensemble, that's even better. You know, at least the composers who've grown up playing, like in a band in high school or playing an instrument in the orchestra. I mean, many conductors in orchestra are people who've come from, you know, who played the violin, for example. And many conductors of people, you know, played the clarinet or the trumpet or whatever in the bands. So Sean, what was your instrument?
I'm a tuba player.
Oh, Tuba. OK. And you, you OK, Trump? Yeah. So anyway, so you know, if you play in the ensemble, I think that really helps. But if you're a composer who didn't like I played piano, so I never played in band work, but I think going to live concerts, I still do it now because it's one thing to be working on your computer with MIDI, but it's different hearing live instruments and just seeing what works acoustically. Because often what works on your computer for balances will not work live. So you have to go back and forth. But again, I just think going to as many live concerts as you can. Also, what's great about YouTube, you can many scores are up there. So you can like turn on YouTube and look up any piece you want and the music's there. And so you can like listen with the score following by. That's pretty amazing. So, you know, that's also a very good tool as well.
Hey I love it. Are you working on anything currently? Have anything big coming up?
I wrote a piece called Van Vecton Variations based on the on the photography of Carl Van Vechten, who took famous portraits of artists of the Harlem Renaissance in the 1930s. So that's being premiered. It's a 30 minute solo piano piece being premiered at Carnegie Hall in a couple weeks, actually.
That's awesome. Congrats. And then?
That's fantastic.
I just mentioned the Cadillac Ranch, That's the band piece being done at Texas Tech and a piece I wrote last year, which the University of Texas doing Dreams of Dali the artist, and they're doing that the following week. And I think they're playing in Midwest. They're playing one of the moments, I believe so. And then I'm writing a Buddy Holly piece called the Buddy Holly Guitar, Yeah, called Last Dance at the Surf, and that'll be for the Lone Star Winds Symphony. That'll be in. Yeah. So I'm busy at the moment, yes.
Yeah. Like it? Lots of projects in Texas. It's.
Always Texas. Yeah, this is. So like. A lot of action.
I'm sorry. There's always a lot of action in Texas.
Indeed so, So Michael, this has just been a fascinating conversation. Your insights are always wonderful to hear. So now that we've come to the end of our formal questions, we have three that we ask all of our guests and, and I'll take the first one. So, do you have a soapbox topic about anything to share with our listeners?
I guess my wish is that we can just keep the dialogue open between people. And I think that music is one of the common denominators. I mean, sports is that. And I think music is one of those things where you can have people who have different belief systems can come together and can create something that's productive. So, you know, hopefully politics won't divisive politics won't get into sports where people start like losing a game. They say, wait, the game was rigged. You know, we're not going to accept we actually won the game. So that hasn't happened in sports yet. You know, you lose the game, you shake hands, OK, That's that's how it is. And in music, I think too, that, you know, you can bring different kinds of people together with different belief systems, but you can produce something that's very positive. So.
That's absolutely, absolutely true. Are there, Michael, are there any books or a singular book that has inspired your journey? Doesn't have to be musical, just books that you would share that hey this is something you should pay attention to.
Well, I wish I had more time to read books, but when I was a kid, Ernest Hemingway, I read many of his books and I actually wrote a cello concerto called Tales of Hemingway. Though I've always been a fan of American writing, Ernest Hemingway and others, but I don't really have time a lot, lot of time to read probably really films have informed me more. You know, there's certain movies like that come out like The Wizard of Oz or The Godfather or The Good, Bad and the Ugly. You know, certain films that every time they come on, I just have to watch those films. And I'm, I'm, I'm looking at the visuals, I'm listening to how the music, the editing, the camera work and all that sort of thing. So I think I'm a visual person more and I think films have really shaped my way of thinking quite a bit.
Yeah, that's incredible. I would love to have you write a piece that is based on the Godfather trilogy. I would love that.
I'll start working out. There's some pretty good tunes in there.
There are some. Really good tunes. There's good music in that.
So then, so then Michael, for the a final question that we ask everybody and arguably the most important, what is your favorite time signature?
That's interesting. I tend to like a time signature like 4434 or 3444. So instead of just a steady, instead of just a four steady groove, you know, I like to have mixed meters. So I tend to do a lot of, I'm thinking a lot of like 4434 kind of thing or instead of 7 four, I'll break it up. But I think that it gives a sense of rhythmic drive at the same time the downbeat can change slightly. Yeah, absolutely. 4 + 3 four. Yeah. Another thing I've done in a lot of my pieces going all the way back to Desi is if I'm in 3-4, I'll do BA, BA, 1-231-231-2312, 312-3123. But as is a four BA1234 BA BA, you come back to 1. Finally get back to one.
Yeah, I'll. Tell you I remember. Sorry, I was, I was just saying going off of that, I was, I was conducting Niagara Falls actually with the a pioneer band at Carnegie Hall a couple years ago. And man, I was having to think in my head like I go and don't even subdivision, even subdivision. So, so like, you know, just because it is so complex, yet it's just, I just think it is geniusly written. It's just anyway, just like, you know, but there are times going through your music that I've had to think as hard as like Stravinsky or, you know, other complex music going. Yeah. But then it just feels right, you know? But you've got to be able to make sure that, that everything works. It's just, it's just excellent.
The two most difficult pieces I've conducted were Mountains Rising Nowhere and Bells for Stokowski and those. I love that piece, but there it you have to really be paying attention to what's coming up in the meter change, the tempo change I get. I really had to dig into that score, basically memorize it because it changes. It changes quickly. You don't have time to turn the page and be like, oh, Nope, it really was that. But I love that piece you mentioned earlier, just a Bach and that whole tying together the bells in that piece with the idea of fugue, which you mentioned earlier is something that you were really interested in. It was just so geniusly weaved together, like I just, I really love that piece. And it has a big ending too, like you talked about earlier. So yeah.
I like those. I like those big endings. Although I'm sorry, I occasionally do have a soft ending so.
Is there a one piece that you've written that's your favorite?
Well, you know, there's so many pieces now over the last, you know, 4, you know, 40 some years that I've written, but usually the piece I'm hearing at that time, I think I wrote that, you know. That's great. So. There's there's certain pieces. It's also usually as a composer, you're known for maybe one piece after you're, you know, after you're gone. Usually it's like one piece you're known for, you know, for, you know, you know, Lincolnshire, Lickshire, Posey for. Yeah, for Granger. Prissy Granger. I mean, that's basically the piece he's known for, right? You know, for kind of one piece, but a couple of pieces of Niagara Falls. Bill Strostakowski those will probably be around and I wrote a new one called Pasakali and primary colors. I think that's one of my best pieces actually, and that's that's starting to make the rounds and the adventures of Jesse Owens. I think that's a piece that might it's a quite a bit. So you.
Heard that one so I'm looking forward. To hearing it, yeah.
I mean, you never know what's what's, what's, what's, what's going to stick, so to speak. But I've got, I've got a great ride. I've worked with so many great conductors. I won't mention them because I'll forget somebody, but I've worked with so many great conductors over the years and many of them are friends. And it's just that, you know, I love working in the wind world. And, you know, and it's either been middle school or high school or college or whatever. It's, it's just been a great ride. And I look forward to getting a couple more pieces in. And, and we talked about doing something. I'm going to be retiring from the University of Michigan from teaching soon. We talked about doing something with the marching band.
Yes, I'm so excited we do it have to make this work. I am working hard behind the scenes to have it happen, Michael.
OK, so that would be. Fantastic.
Absolutely so. Michael, thank you so much for your time today.
Yeah, absolutely. We so appreciate you being with us.
Absolutely. That's it for today's episode of the Common Time Podcast. And thank you for spending time with us. We hope that today's conversation will give you something useful to take back to your students and your program. And if you enjoyed this episode, make sure you subscribed so you don't miss what's coming up. And if you know another director who might benefit from this, please share it with them. Also, don't forget you're able to nominate a music educator for our Standing Ovation program. The link to submit is in the show notes below. Thanks again for joining us on the Common Time podcast. As always, keep making music and keep making a difference.