Hi everybody, and welcome back to Season 3 of the Common Time podcast. We're so glad to have you here to continue bringing our conversations, insights, and inspiration for music educators everywhere. Each week, we'll highlight voices from across the music world and share ideas that you can bring directly into your classroom and to your ensembles. Before we begin our conversation today, however, it's time for our standing ovation, a new segment of our show where we shine a spot on one of our incredible colleagues that is truly making a difference in the field. This week, we're recognizing Tom Lukovich from the University of North Alabama. Steve Golich shared that Tom is one of the most humble, intrinsically motivated, thoughtful, curious minds he's ever had the pleasure to be around and work with in education. Tom has a unique gift to be able to set aside his own bias on the subject and explore the possibility of a better way of doing something. Steve also shared that very few educators have had the impact Tom has had on his career. Tom is where he is because he is focused on the service of others. And we know that in our profession, it's not often that we as teachers get the spotlight. But we think that you deserve one. So to Tom and all the other hard working music educators out there, this ovation is free. And if you have someone you'd like to nominate for a standing ovation, as always, the link is in our show notes. And now let's turn to our guest. Our guest today is Lois Wiggins. Welcome, Lois.
Thank you for having me, it's great to be here with you all.
We're excited to talk with you. So Lois taught for 33 years in Kentucky, Tennessee, and Indiana. She's now in demand as a conductor and a clinician across the United States. And today we're going to dive into one of my favorite topics, which is beginner band. So, John, why don't you get us started?
Hi Lois, it's so good to see you. Thank you so much for being here this morning. So I think this topic is so important because of its complexity for any of us that taught the beginning band, it's so challenging to set things up the correct way. And I would argue that the majority of people across the country are teaching in heterogeneous classes. And that can be, I've found really stressful if people don't really know how to navigate it. So I'm sort of so excited to talk to you about it. So I'm just going to dive right in. So teaching a beginner heterogeneous class means juggling multiple instruments at multiple levels in stages and their progress. So what do you see as the biggest keys to success in the heterogeneous class setting?
This is the perfect topic for me because I am teaching woodwind methods at Eastern Kentucky University this semester and then I am supervising my clinical students, so I see them in all kinds of settings. So I'm constantly talking about being able to do this. And I think in looking back many, many years, I think the biggest challenge is going to be a knowledge of pedagogy. Basically, why does it not sound like it's supposed to? Just being able to negotiate that and diagnose issues with the young students. And as they prepare to be band directors or lead groups or teach elementary band, they've got to make sure that they have a plan for that. That's really what I am hammering with my methods students — you don't have to be an expert at the instrument, but you do have to be able to diagnose what's going on. You need to be able to look and listen and diagnose what's going on and give them some strategies to do that on all the instruments. And that takes time to do it, but it's so, so worth it. I was lucky in that my sister was a clarinet player. I'm a trumpet player. And so I was so enamored with band that I would sneak and play her clarinet. So I was able to get myself around a clarinet pretty well pretty early on. And then my first year teaching, I lived in a small apartment. So the only instrument I could practice was flute without driving my neighbors crazy. So I got pretty efficient at that. And then the rest was just learning and reading and watching and practicing and at least being able to play with the students. So I would say number one is just being able to diagnose pedagogical problems. And then number two is all the fingerings that you have to learn. And the way you learn fingerings is to play the instrument. I remember this quote from Bob Reynolds, who's a leading conductor over decades, asking about teaching — you need to know the instruments, which is so important. At least be able to model. If you're teaching beginning band, at least being able to model what you're expecting them to play.
Right. So when you first started teaching beginners, what were some of the challenges that you faced and how did you overcome them?
Well, like I shared earlier, the biggest issue for me was just why does it sound like that? I don't think it's supposed to sound like that. And honestly, what I did was I just took instruments home and practiced and read and went through what they have in their books, because it's so different than it is now. Now kids can click on a video and see an expert talk them through how to make sounds. But for us, it was just the books and what we had learned in our college pedagogy classes. So for me, like I said earlier, I would take instruments home and just try to learn to play what the kids were playing or work myself through a beginning band book. And I like to use the Standard of Excellence Book 1 Teacher's Manual. That's what I share with my students because there's a whole chart of what's wrong and how to fix it — it sounds like this, this is how to fix it. So that's kind of how I worked myself through it. I spent many, many hours in my band office and at home when I could, just experimenting and trying to get myself better and doing what research I could with the things that I had.
Yeah, I remember when I was first teaching — I didn't have complete heterogeneous classes the whole time, but my first year I did. I had about 25 kids in the temporary building outside the school, and that was our little band building. I had two flutes, three clarinets, three trumpets, two trombones, a euphonium, and one snare drummer — and that's what he signed up to play, snare drum. So that's why I went into that going, OK, how am I going to do this? Because I've got 25 kids on all different instruments, I've got 30 minutes in this little space. Can you talk to us a little bit about how do you organize having the understanding that these fundamentals are important to clarinet, but not necessarily to the snare drummer?
Well, what I usually try to do was just making sure that I gave the others something to do. If I had to give attention to the clarinets, if I had to help the clarinets get their reeds squared away, or where I had to show the percussionists how to hold his sticks, I would make sure I gave everybody something to do. Or David, one of the things I like to do — because they're so curious at that age — it's like, OK guys, I need to show the clarinets how they do this, why don't you watch us? Because I think you're going to find this really interesting and maybe you'll find something that pertains to you. So just basically keeping the kids engaged and then just running around like my head was on fire, trying to address everybody. When I taught in Henderson, I taught beginning band in the elementary school. So I had the 6th graders in the gym and once we've negotiated getting all our instruments put together and had everybody in a chair and able to make a sound, then I was just constantly running around, looking at everybody, double checking things. OK, everybody look over here, let's see if we can fix this or make this better. Just being really on top of that and having a plan in my head for what I wanted to address and just moving a lot and lightning fast around the room. But the way to do that again is to make sure you're prepared in terms of what you want and how you want to get it. I had binders for every instrument. And I just collected all the knowledge I could and I would go in and study about clarinet. I'm a trumpet player, but I also went to my clarinet people and said, tell me what's important here. That went into my binder and I was constantly just collecting. The binders are what I make my methods kids keep as well — binders with dividers. That's what you're going to collect stuff in. The next time they showed up with spiral notebooks and iPads, I was like, no, we're going to do binders. I'll punch holes for you. You need to have a section for each instrument so that when you're out teaching and you need a quick fix, you can flip to it. You're not going to have time to go to a Google Drive or look on the Internet. You need something that you can access very quickly. So we're building our binders just as we speak.
That's great. So Lois, a part of what I was just hearing you talk about is going to be the pacing of the rehearsal process, right? This is so complicated in a heterogeneous class, and it can be tricky having to move quickly while some students are really advanced and some of them aren't quite so much. So how do you keep everybody engaged and keep things moving forward and not have people being left behind?
From the beginning, I like to teach the young musicians to be critical listeners and be able to watch and look and learn and see what's going on in the classroom. So I'm constantly directing attention to where I am, or John, I'm giving the other kids something to practice. If the flutes are having trouble getting their fingers in the right place — which we all know they do — you know, OK flutes, choose a partner, partner share. And why don't you practice picking up your instruments and putting them down while I work with the trumpets on just getting their first note or buzzing or something like that. So just trying to keep all of the students engaged in tiny little projects that they can do on their own, and not just leading them to sit and watch and get into whatever and take apart their instruments — and you know how that goes. But really just working to keep them engaged in something, whether it be what's going on in the front of the room or maybe helping their partner to learn something, or name the notes for your friend on line 27 while I work with so-and-so over here.
You know, I've only had two teaching jobs in my life — I taught middle school band and I teach college now — and I remember how hard it was to plan an effective rehearsal at the beginner level. Like for anybody listening, it takes so much more time than you probably think to be effective in a heterogeneous beginner classroom. Every second has to be planned, in multiple ways, because you have multiple touch points simultaneously. The trombones are doing this problem over here, the percussionists are tossing their sticks around doing all the things, and keeping everybody engaged. It's...
I have a solution for that percussion thing, by the way.
Please, I'm all ears. Yeah, what do you do?
If they drop their sticks on the floor, they stay on the floor. And they can play with their fingers. And I can't tell you the number of pitiful little sad faces when sticks hit the floor. The whole class just froze. It's like, I'm so sorry. But I would give them an out — if they were nice, I'd let them pick their sticks up. But you know what, we didn't drop our sticks.
That's a good way to do it. Yeah.
So you're right, John, it does take very meticulous planning, and I think that's where we miss out sometimes as young music educators — we just don't plan things out as well as we should. In the early days, you're going to have to plan to the nth degree. As you get older and more experienced with the process, you don't necessarily have to do that because it just becomes second nature. I don't have to plan to teach a beginning band class — just tell me where they are and what they're doing and I can walk in and do that because I've been doing it for a gajillion years. But for you, you need to write down a step by step by step plan, and I even encourage my student teachers and clinical students to maybe use index cards. Do what works for you so that you have a plan right in front of you and you're not flying by the seat of your pants. Because you can't — because you'll lose them, definitely.
Right. Yeah, I remember when I was doing those beginning classes, especially the heterogeneous one — and I only did that for one year, and then the next year the 6th grade moved up to the middle school so it kind of changed. But in that year, I was driving from the high school to my temporary building, and that drive is about 20 minutes for me, and I was going through like, here's what I'm going to do for this 30-minute class. I had already planned it the night before, but I'm just going over it in my head — here's my plan, here's the step by step. And if I didn't do that, I would walk in there and I would fail. I just couldn't think quickly enough. So that drive over really helped me focus and center, like, OK, when I walk in here, here's what we're going to do. And there were certain things I had — little entry rituals that were really important because I needed to get everybody focused. And then we went. I had some fundamental things that I wanted to do, and the fundamentals were different — I needed the clarinets doing something different than what the low brass were doing. So all of that had to be put into place in my sort of master plan that I did the night before or sometimes the weekend before to try to get that lined up. So now...
So think David, just to hop in here too on this — people don't always account for every second. So Lois, David and I taught in Texas. I was very fortunate to have 90-minute homogeneous classes every day, and that was awesome. I thought I was an effective teacher — until I went to the Duncanville cluster in Texas. They had 20-minute heterogeneous classes. And I'll tell you what, every second was accounted for. And those beginners sounded better than mine. And I mean we had exponentially more time.
All right, well the planning and preparation — not just of what you're going to teach, but how you're going to get them in the room, what's our procedure for getting to our chairs, are we going to play or not play when we get our instruments out, are we going to stand in a big line and ask Miss Wiggins a million questions or are we going to sit down and get ready to play? I mean, I planned that to the highest degree. I didn't start out that way, but then when I started realizing this time is precious and I've got to have this under control so I can get every bit of it — how much time are you going to give them to put their instruments away, how much time to get their instruments out, how are you going to take attendance, how are you going to pass out materials? So you really just have to have that plan in your mind and not just go, OK so I'm going to do this, this, this, and this today, we'll see how it goes. And then not to mention, hey Mr. Pasquale, my instrument won't play.
Yep. How do you deal with those problems in the moment? I'm curious what your strategies were or what you found most effective in introducing the actual fundamentals. Yes, we have to have the plan down for how we're entering the room and exiting the room and opening the case and all those things. But when we're talking about in a heterogeneous class dealing with tone, rhythm, sight reading, those kinds of things when everybody's on a different instrument — so how did you approach that?
Well, I used mouthpiece buzzing for the brass, and then I used mouthpieces and head joints just to get everybody established on moving their air, just moving their air through the horn. And then I normally started my percussionists out on mallets — especially at Hayes, which is where I spent most of my time before I retired. So everybody started on mallets. Once we established that and we could hold the appropriate pitch out on our instrument for 4, 8, 12, 16 counts, then it was time to move on to actually making pitches. And so we could do a lot of that without the music stand piece of it. Because I do think sometimes people try to start with a book and an instrument and a chair and a stand and it's just too much for the little ones. So just establishing a good embouchure and how to produce a sound on your instrument. I would put, I put together a little what I call the beginning band CHEAT SHEET, which was the 1st 5 notes on a staff with the fingering underneath that I filled in and the goal was, and that would have everybody playing in unison. So B flat CDE, flat F for flutes and so on. And once we learn and we're comfortable with those first five notes, then I moved to the book. And so I would take the, I could take those 5 notes and we could do long note exercises, long note contest. We could, I could check to see, you know, if the flutes are, you know, holding their instruments right, they have the right buttons switched down. And once we did that, David, then I was able to move on to the book. I always started with long tones and even with my even as my kids got older, we always started the rehearsal with long tones and then as they got to be 7th graders later on in the year and then 8th graders for certainly moved to corrals, but always something slow and sustained to establish pitch. But most especially with beginners, just I would take those B flat scale or excuse me, those the scale preps for beginning bands, which I love because it takes you through, I think 3 keys and it's age appropriate scales for them. And instead of just playing whole notes on the first one, we would play double whole notes or triple whole notes just to get build up the amateur strength and then just to give them a moving air through the horn. So I hope that's not too general, but that's basically what I, what I, what I did just to establish good tone early on.
Right. No, I think that's exactly, that's exactly right on. I did something kind of similar, but I always focused on sort of four topics, air amateur, tonguing and fingering, in that order. So I actually worked on some air things with him beforehand before we did anything, just getting them to move air like because it's different how we breathe for an instrument versus how we normally breathe. And then the amateur component was, it was my, it was the most important thing. If the amateur wasn't, if it didn't look right, we weren't going to make progress. So I spent quite a bit of time putting those two together before we ever moved to moving our fingers or putting the instrument together, all of that stuff.
Well, and I think that's really important. And sometimes as younger educators, and I was guilty of this as well, we get so wrapped up in notes and moving our fingers, we don't really establish a good breathing habits. And good use of our air on the instrument, which, you know, really is the most important thing. They're just, you know, you're not going to be able to tune an uncharacteristic sound, if you will. And then and then just modeling for the students as well, I think is super, super important. The little ones that it's such a great time to teach them because they're sponges and they just, they want to learn anything. And you know, you, even if you're not a trumpet player, you can play, you know, A5 note song and they're just mesmerized by that. So, you know, just modeling and then making sure you're getting them to do that and then just not moving, moving too awfully fast for them.
That's a really good point. Like take the time to make it right. The time I can't, I mean, I think we can all three of us should say it together and everybody listening right here at take, you know, the other part to this too, I think is us as beginning band teachers having expectations set correctly. I think, and this may be controversial. So I'm just going to say it and this is just me speaking, not the 2, not my 2 fabulous colleagues, but this is just me thinking this. But I, I think we're all going to be on the same page. I think we as beginning band teachers set our expectations too low when I would approach every note, every time, every class should sound like the Chicago Symphony. Now you have to work to ultimately get there. But at the end of the day, I never, ever, ever, ever I'm not stuttering either. Ever, ever, ever, said they're just beginners.
Right, I would have to agree with you on that. I just a pretty unpleasant tone with no waivers is what is what I used to say. We're just working to get a pretty unpleasant tone that somebody wants to listen to. Do you think that's a pretty unpleasant tone, you know, just, you know, really focusing in on that and making sure that I was giving them the tools to make that pretty unpleasant tone with no waiver. So there it is OK to have high expectations for your beginners and you know, really establishing a good practice routine with them so that they want to go home and practice to do that. I actually said to my woodwind methods class, these ones are not going to play themselves. So just like you know, you learn to play your instrument, you got to take some time to build up your build up your skills outside of band class. So, you know, I love that pretty and pleasant tone with no waivers.
Yeah, I love it. I used to tell them I would ask them like, does that sound beautiful to you? And they have to tell me like, do you do you like the way that sound? And I would say we didn't say no waivers, but I love the way you said it because I always said constant, steady, smooth air. So I would say CSS, that was our and I looked like what happened with that. And the kid go, it wasn't CSS. You're right. It wasn't. How do we do that? I have to make my air cause a steady smooth. All right, let's try again. But it's funny, we never talked together, but same thing and. No personal earthquake, so you got to sit still when you play.
OK, so. I love that too. No. Personal earthquakes, yes. And then well, and I used to always say start and stop together. That was another one of my lowest weekends is, you know, pretty pleasant tone start and stop together. Those are going to be our 2 two goals. So, so that kind of got them into the counting and, you know, paying attention to where they were in the note and then focusing on the tone production make it making a nice sound. But I do think too, John, since you brought this up, it is important that you, they hear good characteristic sounds on the instrument because you can't necessarily, it's such a foreign thing when you put an instrument in their hands. They don't, they don't, there's no expectation for them of what it's supposed to sound like. Even though they've heard symphonies and they've heard groups of things, probably they haven't really heard individuals. So you know, really exposing them to what it should sound like I think is really key as well the example.
When I was teaching middle school, this was back in, in 2000, so this was quite a bit ago, but I, I would have a cassette tapes, that's how long ago this was the set tapes of the best people that I could find on their instrument just as a soloist. And, and every class I would, I would, I would have it coming through the, the sound system as they enter the classroom, right? So my beginner clarinet class, you would hear the best, the best player, net player that I could find in the world, right?
Yeah, it's so easy to do that now. Especially nowadays. Yeah, it's just, there's just no excuse for that because I'm like you, I had to drag out the, you know, vinyl record or the step player that I kept on my podium when I was teaching, you know, push play. But now, you know, everybody's got, well, not everybody, but most rooms I walk in, I have big smart boards with Internet connections. You can go to YouTube videos. So there's tons of it out there and I you just have to make sure that the kids are listening. I'm surprised sometimes when I ask after the students have learned a piece, have you played a professional recording yet? And the answer is no. And I'm like, why not? So, so it's, it's, it's, it's right there. It is right there. And that was something I did even with my little ones when we were, when we were learning beginning fans, greatest hits. You know, it was we once we sight read through it and got everybody from the key signature down to the double bar at the end, we listen to a professional recording of it. So, so that's super, super important because they just don't know how to make that connection unless you provide that for them.
Yeah. So Lois, I'm I'm going to change topics just a little bit because this is currently near and dear to my heart about setting the tone, pardon the pun, for the students long term band success, because ultimately we want every band student to go to some sort of advanced ensemble that could be in the community, that could be in college, right? So I would argue that the beginning band often sets the tone for students long term experience in loving the art form of music. Right. So how do like we as educators create an environment that is both structured for sure, but also inspiring right from the very beginning to like, want them to continue playing?
Well, I think it's really important that you the atmosphere is really what I tried to set up was a first of all band room or band hall as y'all call them in Texas. It set up, you know, a space that was very inviting wherever the kids looked in the room. And David's been in my band room before. Wherever they looked in the room. There's tons of information, tons of memorabilia about what's going on in the past. It's just a welcome, warm, inviting, clean, neat and organized space for the kids to be in. They take pride in that. So I've been in some rooms before, not many, but some I'm just like, I cannot get back past the mess in this room. It's not some place I would want to be. But then, John, I think it's so important that we you produce a good quality product that the kids are proud of. So that's where your pedagogy is going to come in, where you've got to make sure that the kids are proud of what they do and nobody's going to call them a band nerd or laugh at the band because they don't sound really well. That's what makes them proud. When I was so happy with what I was able to build at Hayes, the band was a very well respected program there. The students outside of them knew, Oh, the band is really good. If we had a performance at school or anything, the kids supported us. But that came from building something that the students were proud of and wanted to be a part of. So, you know, I think you have to establish that first and then constantly provide them with opportunities to perform. That's why they're there. You know, they, they joined the ensemble so that they could play and be in a, in a group and make music, give and give. So we have to give them the opportunity to do that. You know, we can't. I don't know that it's, I know, and I hope this doesn't sound too weird, but I know it's important to get our fundamentals down and, and practice those things that are going to make us sound better. But the kids are there to play music. So you have to balance that rehearsal out so that they get the opportunity to do that and pick good literature for them. And you know, nowadays it is. So there are so many wonderful things written for.5 bands up through, you know, grade 3 or grade 4 or maybe you're 8th graders. There's really good quality stuff out there. So pick good music and let them play it. And I, I really think that's what develops a love of music. You can pick things that are too hard for them, but then all you do is end up beating the music into them and that doesn't create joy. And that's not something I would want to do personally. So, you know, so that was kind of how I built this success at the group, constantly letting them hear the older kids play that had gone on through the program. And this is what you get to do after every concert. We did reflections and I let them ask me questions or ask me, you know, you heard the 7th and 8th grade play. Which song would you like to hear again or what? Do you have any questions or when are we going to get to play, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So that's kind of how I set it up. It was just, it was, it was just a really happy place and we made, we made good music and we shared it.
Yeah, I love that. I have been in Lois's rehearsals in her band room, and it was very clean. And I think that's an important point. But it was a space where the kids were happy. There was joy in the room. And I think that obviously came from Lois. Like setting that as the tone, that's what she wanted those kids to experience. So I can say just having witnessed it, she's right on. You know, I love for music is what we're trying to develop. You know, yes, the fundamentals are correct. But you know, we want these kids to love music. So right.
And you know, when I, I've dealt with so many student teachers and many, I'm so proud to say, are out having very successful careers teaching instrumental music. But early on, I was just like, you know, it seems like you don't like the kids. So, you know, you got to be a little bit happier when you're up on the stage. Well, they don't seem like they like me. I'm like, well, you know, I think it's going both ways here. And ultimately they're going to win. So, so, you know, we got to change our tune a little bit, make it, you know, make it more inviting, make it happier, make, make it happier for them. Every day was not perfect, but most days were very, very good.
Yeah, that's it was such wonderful information. I'm I'm glad to just makes me smile just talking about it. I'm going to ask you a question about classroom management because when you're obviously beginner kids and heterogeneous classes, it's it can be as important if not more important than the musical content in the first year's ensembles because like you said, the kids will win if it comes down to it. So I'm curious what routines or systems were game changers for you in keeping order but having momentum as well?
Yeah, when I just, I, I, I kind of glazed through. I read, I didn't glaze. I just read through the questions and I saw that. And you, you in, in the, in the way the question was posed was, is it is just as important as anything that you do with them when they have their instruments in their hand. Because if they're not, if they're not engaged in the rehearsal and they don't know how to rehearse, they don't know how to act, if you will, then you're not going to get a whole lot done musically. So yes, structure, routine, structure, routine. I, if you want it, teach it. If they're, and that's not just notes and rhythms and fingerings and such and tone. If you want them to walk into the room in an orderly way, then you have to teach it. If you want them to respond to you when you step on the podium, you have to teach that. So there were lots of strategies in place for teaching those things. I used to play what I call the cut off game that if everybody cut off right with me at the ensemble when we did it 15 times together, then they get a treat from the band store and I know it's candy, but you know what, it works well, you're training them, you know, with candy. I said no, actually, I'm training them to watch me and stop when I stop conducting. You work like a charm. So if there's any behavior that you want, you have to teach it. I had a particularly the challenging 6th grade class one year that they just came into the room and it was like all hell broke loose, you know? And so we stopped outside the door and lined up. They didn't come into the band room until I invited them in and then we had no talk as we were getting our instruments out and getting set up together and we practiced that. So I worked with April Kite for many years and we had a chatty group. She just shut everything down and said we don't need to practice playing, we need to practice being quiet. So she put a 5 minute timer up on the big screen and we just sat there and looked at each other for 5 minutes. Which is a long time for. Little people, that's a long time, but you know, if there's a behavior that you're expecting, whether it be playing or how they act, you have to teach that. I had a little system where beginners love to ask questions. You all know that they have 100,000 questions when they walk in. I just took little red strips of construction paper and everybody had one in their folder. When they came in. The expectation was good afternoon or good morning, Miss Wiggins. And I said good morning back and then they went to get set up. If they had a question or had something to turn in or was they're having a problem, they just took their folded red sign out and put it on their music stand. And I said, I'll come to you once I get everybody seated and settled and you're getting ready rather than, you know, you look up and there's a line of people. It's like, why is there a lot of people waiting to talk to me.
I love that. So I was like, you know, we can't do this. So we just did put your red sign out if you have a if you have a question or need help.
Yeah, I love that idea. Yeah, that's the first time I've ever heard that idea, yeah.
And. When I just if you do. It go ahead in 6th grade, we did it, you know, in 6th grade by 7th. If you do it diligently and deliberately in 6th grade, then you don't have that issue in 7th and 8th grade because they know what the expectation is.
Right. I just love the intentionality there. Like you had, you had a problem and you created an entry ritual that solved the problem in terms of classroom management, but also set up the 7th graders and the 8th graders for like, here's the expectation. Like, you're not gonna enter the room and start asking 100 questions. We have other things we have to accomplish, right. But still recognizing, like, their kids, they're gonna have questions.
Yeah. Well, and disclaimer here for those folks that wanna try it, you make sure you let the kids know what the red sign should be used for. Not my eye itches or right my cat ate mummy, you know that sort of thing. You know, just. Some qualifiers.
Yeah, some qualifiers for you know what constitute you putting the red sign out and me taking time to come and help you out? Sure. But it worked great for me. I love it. You know, hearing you talk about classroom management reminds me of a story. One time, Doctor Klemmer and I, we were doing an honor band out of the country. We are going to talk about where it was, but I, I, I mean, David Glimmer is a genius in every way. I've never seen, I have never seen you work so hard because I was doing the high school band and you were doing the middle school band and I would come to your rehearsals going, I can't be in this space. I and it was an honor band, so you know, like it's kids from and it was there was just so little discipline. We couldn't. That was a long week. It was a long week. It was in a very beautiful place. Yeah. So we were, we were fortunate where we were, but manned. But it does go back to classroom management because. It was a management condition.
Nothing. I was going to also mention too guys that I use signals to get silence. I know a lot of people shout something at the van and they shout something back and then it's supposed to be quiet. And sometimes it is and most times it's not. But I would just use a simple hand signal. You know, I just I saw, I've seen people blow whistles and stuff and I'm like, Nope, we're going to use silence for silence. I'm not going to make noise to get the kids quiet. And that was actually a school wide thing that we did at Hayes. We could, we could quiet the gym of X number of middle school students full in the bleachers in like 5 seconds. All the teachers would just put their right hand up and the kids would put their right hand up and there was silence in the room. So, so that would, that would, that was a, that was a big, big, big thing for me. Also, I know it's just establishing routines for that sort of thing and not, you know, not getting into the habit of yelling and screaming that the kids. I mean, it's the same way with my pups. You know, if I'm, if I get really irritated and start not comparing children to animals, please. But anyway. But I think about teaching students when I'm trying to get them to do things, but when I make a lot of noise, they make a lot of noise. So yeah, anyway.
So for those who don't know, Lois is a huge dog lover as well as a fantastic teacher. That's why she brought her pups up.
My girls.
Yeah, absolutely. So, so, so Lois, often I'm going to ask you a question about parents, OK? Because this, this is a double edged sword in a way, right? Because what I would argue that student success has just as much to do with parent engagement and, and support than or as anything else. So oftentimes parents have either questions or concerns when their child starts an instrument. And so how do you communicate with parents or families to help build the support of this process? Because we all know it's going to be a little rough sounding for quite a while. Take some time. Right, right, right.
Well, I think first of all, just, you know, the, the setting up the whole parent interaction. I'll, I always sent the, the calendar for the entire year home on the first day of school with a parent sign up. I use ban cash as an incentive for the kids, just plastic money. And you know, if you get this back sign, this is, you know, this is how much ban cash. So I did, we met as a anybody that had to put anything in the calendar at Hayes met before school started. And so we had the calendar established before school started and it was there was number changing. This is what it was. So I didn't have to worry about something falling on top of a band concert. So all of that information went home on the first day of school with a sign off contract that I expected to get back for their first grade. So got to put some planning into that. And then I use social media and I don't know what it's like in Texas. It's a little weird in Kentucky right now about Facebook pages and things like that. But honestly, I felt like I got my most parent. I was able to interact with more parents via our band Facebook page than anything else. They read that more often than I think than they read the information that came home in the kids backpacks and things like that. So I didn't necessarily do a big newsletter or anything like that. I just made sure everything went home before the start of the school year and then a week before the concert. They got a reminder letter that everybody took home and made sure parents got a hold of and then if need be, if need be and 1. I don't know, one of the hardest things for teachers to do is call home, you know, if there's an if, if there's an issue with why, why Billy Joe, Tom Bob can't play, Mary had a little lamb and everybody else in the class can. Well, you know, how much time are they spending at home practicing? Here's some ways that you can help them. Do they have a place that they can practice? You know, do you are you supportive of that? Or, you know, you giving them some space to grow and learn? If they're not practicing at home, they're not getting better here. And that's going to affect their grade. One of the things I always did also was at band concerts, I had a big screen behind me behind that was on the big drop down speed. And I had a slideshow running with important updates and announcement that ran the entire time through the performance, performances that were coming up, anything that was due, fundraising, money, grades, playing, you know, things like that. Running on the big screen in the back. Middle school kids have to have their parents bring them to the concert, right? So they have something to look at while I'm getting the kids ready to fly. That was a really nice thing that I was glad to be able to do.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That's a great idea. Yeah, there's so many great ideas. I wish I had a list of things that you said, like I loved the personal earthquake. Like you have all these little sayings, like you have tons of little things. I wish we had like a written list I could just give to all the listeners because it's I've seen you teach and you do have just a way with kids. But it has to do with, you know, how you deliver the information, which is, you know, for a young teacher, sometimes it's getting started. You like, what do I say? What do I do, you know?
Simple is what I tell my students. Just keep it simple. They don't need to know about half steps and whole steps when you're talking about the key signature. It's the sharks and flats at the beginning of the music. That's all they need to know. Just keep it simple until they're ready to take on more information. With that, I think too you, I hope that the, the, the folks who are getting in the music, remember why they got into music and think about folks who inspired them along the way, because that's what your job is going to be. And that's the opportunity you have to inspire young musicians to keep playing, to move on, to perhaps become professional musicians or get in the music industry, whether they teach or something like that. So that's such an important part of who you are and, and what you do. And I just, I, I, I love being around kids 99% of the time, but you know, just able to communicate that because they do, they do know when you're genuine and, and care about what you're doing and that you, and you want to see them. I would also say, and I hope I'm not getting too far off topic, but I would also say that just, John, you brought up expectations earlier in the conversation. You know, I once had somebody look at me and go, well, you know, why do you have such high expectations? You know, that third row clarinet is not going to sound like the front row clarinet. I said, yes, maybe that's the case, but I'm certainly not going to put my expectations on the 3rd row clarinets and put my benchmark for success back there. I'm going to try to bring everybody as far to the front as I possibly can. You know, you've got your kids who are going to be rock stars regardless of you. You've got, you know, the kids who are going to struggle that you got to bring up somehow figure a way to bring up. And then you got your meat and potato kids. And those kids in the middle are the ones you just make flourish and grow because they're going to bring up both ends of the grid.
Right. Yeah. Well, this has been a great conversation about, you know, heterogeneous classes and what you've done with them. And I'm just as kind of a last question here before we wrap up if, and this is for especially for our young teachers that are listening, if this was if they were about to enter for the first time heterogeneous beginner band class, what's one piece of advice that you'd want them to hear before they before they go I? Can only say 1. Just whatever.
Well, I'm just going to go back to the phrase that I used earlier. That's and I didn't learn this until I moved to Fayette County in 2018. I think it's when I came here and they made us. I've been teaching for a long time and they made us or no 2024. That's when I came here. Twenty O 420 O 4 is when I came here and they made all the teachers that were new to Fayette County go to a new teacher workshop and I was just like, great, I've been doing this for 20 years. New teacher workshop. But that's where I met Sean Reeves, who is a dear, dear friend of mine now. He was a guidance counselor at Hayes and he got to talking and that's where I first heard that phrase I used earlier. If you want to teach it, if there's behavior and expectations, I just counseled the young lady that's starting her first year on what she you know what, what should I do? I said, well, Lauren, write down how you want the kid, what kind of rehearsal etiquette and behavior that you want them to have and where you want to see them. And then you figure out how you're going to teach those things. So if their behaviors and things that you want and expectations that you have, then sit down and write a list. Start general and then just keep getting as detailed and detailed as you can on how you're going to pace yourself to get there and prepare for the kids to get there. Love it and ask for help if you need it.
That's a great one, actually. Yeah, yeah. You're not going to know everything at the beginning. Someone can help you? Even kind of mid career.
Oh honey, I'm still learning. I'm just like I was today, years old when I figured out.
Right, it's so true.
So this has been a fabulous conversation, Lois, Thank you so much. So we always ask three questions of our guests to kind of wrap things up and I'll take the first. So do you have a soapbox topic?
Yes. I thought you might. I do. I'm a little concerned. I'm a lot concerned about competitive marching band and its impact on the size of programs and the longevity of students participation in programs. It's pretty intense and it's very expensive. And so I've just have seen too many kids who start really early and burn out very quickly. So it was, it's tough to, I know that programs dip into the middle schools and younger bands for players and to fill spots, but I'm not sure that's a healthy thing to do. So I, I worry about that when I, when I see the babies out there marching. I was judging up in New York a couple seasons ago and I was on the field and this little person's hat was crooked, you know, and I just wanted to stop. And the mother, Lois Wiggins, wanted to come up and straighten out this little hat and ask why are you, you're, you're so little. So that's one of that's one of my soapboxes for right now.
Yeah, now that's we don't dive into that topic too much on the podcast, but it's come up a couple of times of where how do we balance competitive marching band with all the other things? And then how do we how do we measure, you know, the our success outside of competition? And I always bring the story up. We have a colleague John and I, his name is Christophe Brytock. He's we co-authored a book together and published it, excuse me, in Germany. And he was a German author. And I remember asking him this questions and how do you gauge success as a music educator? And he didn't hesitate. And he immediately said, if my students are playing their instrument 10 years after they leave.
Amen. Yes.
That was it. I mean, it was instantaneous. It said nothing about we've accomplished these things. We played that stage, we won. This wasn't a thought and it really I had to pause and like, I wonder if I would have said that when I was teaching competitive marching band and teaching high school and going through the motions. So I think it's just something we have to always keep reminding ourselves. What's the big why? Why are we doing this?
Well, and I just, I really look at it from a pedagogical standpoint and if the, if the kids are, you know, ready to move on, are we pushing them a little bit too fast into that? So, and I know that there are some people who approach it in a very healthy way and I'm so, so, so glad for that. But I, I just get a little bit, I get a little bit concerned because I do think we're losing kids because of that personally.
Yeah, it's fine. Understandable. Yeah. So next question, is there a particular book or books that have inspired you in your, you know, journey? Doesn't have to be music, could be anything.
Well, I think that series, oh, it's right here. I have it in front of me, this little series called Rehearsing the band. I love those books because they're short, easy reads and, you know, they're ways to get better from experts in the field that do that. And this is going to sound a little goofy, but I have just I've recently discovered the book and movie where the crawdads sang. And if you haven't seen it or read the book, I think you should. It's just that, you know, I don't want to do any spoilers. And it's complete fiction. It the, a young lady who basically was abandoned in the Carolina swampland marsh, you know, she kind of rises herself out and becomes an expert on bugs and wildlife and things like that. And I, I don't, I've, I've read the book twice and I've watched the movie like 4 times because I'm just mesmerized by this little person's resilience and how that person grew into a really accomplished person and, and made their life so that I, I know that's really kind of way out there. But yeah, that's kind of been what I've.
Been No, I love it. We're the crawdad scene. Yeah, I don't think I've seen it. Yeah, it's been out for a couple years. I'll put it on my list. All right, All right, Louis. So our final question and possibly the most important of the day, what's your favorite time signature?
I'm probably just going to say as a I'm a pretty B flat concert girl. SO44. Common time.
Common time. Yes, that's the right answer. Oh, you got it. I knew we had you on it was going to be you're going to be a hit. This is fantastic.
So Lois, thank you so much for your time today. I've it's been just wonderful seeing you again and just diving into such a such a great topic, but we're just appreciative of you and for being on.
Well, I hope that you know, those folks who take the opportunity to listen to our great conversation today will know that I consider myself my calling is teaching young people. And now since I'm retired, my calling is helping music educators along the way. So I'm always there to be a part of your lives and help you. Not a whole lot of things that I haven't had to experience in the last 30 or so, 30 some odd years. So happy to be here. Happy to help as always.
Thank you, Lois.
You're welcome.
That's it for today's episode of the Common Time Podcast. And thank you for spending time with us. We hope that today's conversation will give you something useful to take back to your students. And your program. And if you enjoyed this episode, make sure you subscribed so you don't miss what's coming up. And if you know another director who might benefit from this, please share it with them. Also, don't forget you're able to nominate a music educator for our Standing Ovation program. The link to submit is in the show notes below. Thanks again for joining us on the Common Time podcast. As always, keep making music and keep making a difference.