Hi everybody, and welcome back to Season 3 of the Common Time podcast. We're so glad to have you here to continue bringing our conversations, insights, and inspiration for music educators everywhere. Each week, we'll highlight voices from across the music world and share ideas that you can bring directly into your classroom and to your ensembles. Hello everyone and welcome. Last week John interviewed me and this week we've decided that I'm going to interview John. Some of you have reached out asking to know more about us and this is just an opportunity for us to share. And so I want to talk to about John, who is the director of the Michigan Marching Band. Obviously, he's a conductor, clinician, author, pedagogue, a true truly my best friend in the world and a person that I care deeply about, not just as a person, but as a someone that I look up to in respect. So, John, welcome.
Thanks, David. Hi, everybody. Thanks for having me. This is going to be fun.
All right, so I want to ask you what is like an early musical experience that still influences your instincts in rehearsal today?
That's an excellent question. My beginning band experience. I still remember it. Mrs. Neustadter I was in Manitowoc, WI. This was in fifth grade. And, you know, I didn't really think about band. It just happened to be all of my, my friends were doing it. And so they all started playing the trumpet. So I asked if I could play the trumpet. Although if anyone can see my physiology, that's the worst possible instrument you could put me on because I have big lips anyway. So just like, yeah, we're going to go in there. And so I really remembered going to, we would do pull outs because this was in the elementary school still. So, so, so the teacher would come and pull out the trumpet section. Then we would kind of learn the instruments and stuff like that. But the first time we all, all the sections got together, we were playing Anne McGinty's Foxwood Overture. I can I. Sorry about that, Foxwood Overture. I can still finger it bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, like I still got it. And I remember going, this is one of the coolest things ever. And I just loved it. And you know, that joy that I had, I mean, that was a formative moment for me. I've had a couple throughout my career that I attribute to where I'm at today. And that is obviously the first one musically, because I was just like, this is just so cool, you know, because as a kid, I, I have a terrible speech impediment, especially back then. And so playing my instrument, I, I realized really quickly that I could, I could speak without having to use my voice, right? Because it was just easier. It isn't that I was ashamed of the speech impediment, actually not at all. It was just easier. It just took less effort, right? And so I was just like, this is just fantastic. So and so I still think about that and I tell that story. I just told it a couple days ago as a matter of fact. So I am a band director today because of Anne McGinty, Anne McGinty's Foxwood Overture.
Yeah. That's incredible. We should have Anne McGinty on to share this experience with her. So you, since you've talked about it, you, you have a speech impediment. And obviously I've seen you teach young students and get hung up on a word, but then use the students to fill in the word in such a genius way like it creates a rapport. And I'm sure there are other individuals that have things like this that they've had to deal with throughout their careers. And it could be a setback. But for you, I can almost say it, I've watched you do this. I feel like it's it's who you are. It makes John. But how has that affected you? What have you had to do, you know, throughout your career?
It's an excellent question. I mean, I kind of answer it like, I mean, if I don't have to call an ambulance for you, it's all going to be just fine anyway. But I have never thought of my speech impediment as a problem, not ever. And I should attribute that to a couple things. First of all, my parents were wonderful with this. They were always, I mean, they're like this is this is not a setback for you. You can't let like use this as a crutch. So I mean, I was put into very, very social situations as a kid and I was forced just talk my way through it. And I, I do think that helped. They also told me that at the end of the day, it isn't my problem, it's everybody else's, right? So I mean, that's great to think about that, you know, but I'm also not naive to think that oh, well, everyone just has to has to get over it. No, you, I truly believe you have to acknowledge it immediately so that people aren't uncomfortable. You know, it's just there. It's just inevitable when you hear me speak enough. I mean, people say that after we've been around each other for a while, you can't even tell anymore. But at the beginning you certainly can, right? And I think people are trying to be polite and kind and compassionate and empathetic, but they just don't know what to do right? They're like, oh, this is a little awkward. But you know, so I will like use some, some self deprecating humor or just right away. And anyone that's that's ever seen me teach or lecture, I mean, I hit it hard once at the very beginning and then it's all just fine, you know? So yeah, it's a part of who I am. I, I'm, I'm actually thankful for it at times. It's exhausting — anyone that has a speech disfluency can understand this, you know, but it's just like, it's just exhausting.
You said exhausting. I remember we did that CBDNA webinar during COVID and we had all those pre recorded parts that we did and I remember you telling me afterwards that was one of the most exhausting things that you have ever done because just trying to record those things and make it flow.
Yeah, well, you know, because often times when someone hears someone that stutters, you instantly think there's an intellectual problem, right. I've been dealing with this my entire life. Now it helps that I'm just not smart, you know. So I'm just, I mean, that just solves that problem right away, you know? But, you know, but there are some, there's some built in assumptions there, you know. And yeah, so I mean, and I'm, I'm actually giving a Ted talk in March, which I'm honored to have been asked to ultimately do that. But it's, it's, it's going to be about my career, but also kind of getting over this, you know, but at the end of the day, people have it a lot worse than I do. Oh my word. There's a lot of suffering out there in so many different ways. I'm extremely privileged, extremely fortunate. I'm thankful every day for all of the fortune that I, that I've, that I experience, you know, so for me just to kind of get through it, I don't feel sorry for myself at all. And two, no one cares. Like do your job, be a good person. If it takes me a couple extra minutes, we're good to go. I mean, I often offer to call the football games at Michigan, you know, be the play by play announcer, but they don't ever let me do it. I don't know why. But my students — going back to the point — I interact with them a lot in terms of this, like I'll just happen to, to be stuck on the word. I'm like, can someone just help me out? It keeps them engaged a lot. So I actually do that often. And sometimes I even fake it. Sorry for any of the students listening, but it just kind of keeps the conversation because they, they have to stay engaged.
That's fantastic, John. So you're at Michigan?
Yes, at the University of Michigan.
I want to talk to you about that, but let's first bridge the gap from Ann McGinty to Michigan. Like that's a that's a long journey. Tell us where, how you started, and how you ended up at Michigan.
Yeah, thanks for the question. You know, I always wanted to be a teacher. I didn't know that I wanted to teach music, but I've always wanted to teach. I don't know, some people say it's a calling. I don't know. I was just drawn to it ever since I was a kid. I always wanted to teach. And so then I started playing my instrument and being in band and I just found who I was in every way. I just love music. I love teaching. And I'm like, why don't I just do this right? And in my family, my father's a corporate executive, or was while he was working. And I'll tell you that was an interesting conversation in my junior year, you know, when, when we were sitting down having dinner and they're like, so have you thought about career plans? Like it was almost assumed that I was going to go into corporate America. I was like, I'm going to teach music. And they're like, you're going to — I mean, if you could hear the record player skip, right. Like, you're going to do what? Anyway. But so I've just always wanted to. But the, but the odd thing is, is I, I never wanted to teach college. All I wanted to do was be a middle school band director in Texas. And so that's all I ever wanted to do. And so when I was in my undergraduate program, which is the second most formative time in my professional life, in two parts: one, my tuba teacher there, Richard Burrow. He is like a second father to me and he took me under his wing and it was tough. You know, there was some tough love there, but it was really formative. The other part to that though, is my sophomore year, I was called into the Dean's office and, and I was a pretty good student. I'm like, what, what is going on here? And I go in there and there were a couple professors in there, the Dean and an attorney, which I thought was weird. And now it kind of makes sense. But at the time I'm like, what the heck is going on? So they, they, they told me that they thought that I should change my major because of my speech impediment. I would never be an effective teacher. And I, I've never been angry in my life really. I'm coming to realize like I've been frustrated before. At that moment, there was a level of anger that was indescribable. I'll be honest, I walked out of that. And of course I was very professional. But at the end of that, I actually walked out and I said, watch this. And that lit a fire under me like I can't even describe. And so I, at that moment, I was going to be the best, the best middle school band director that I could possibly be, right? Because that's all that I wanted to do. I learned everything about every instrument. I mean, I took it really seriously, had a fantastic student teaching experience. The third most important part of my professional life is Cindy Lansford. I student taught with her. We actually had a fabulous conversation with her a couple years ago here, you know, but she's awesome. She was formative for me. And then I was like, I love middle school. I'm doing this. So then I was hired at Griffin Middle School in The Colony, TX and I taught with some fabulous people with Dick Clardy and Amanda Drinkwater. I followed John Benzer. I mean, it was a really good time to be there. I was thrown into the deep end of a pool, right, figuring things out, and I did that and I loved it. And then we were going to go to graduate school together. And so I was like, you know what, I'll go back to school so I can come back, teach public school and just be higher on the pay scale. I go to the University of Oklahoma and I was like, wow, I can practice my instrument, I can study scores, I can read. I can, you know, this is great. I'll stay and get a doctorate because I'm here, might as well. And then I'll go back and teach public school. Well, then I was hired at Michigan and I have been here ever since. This is my 18th year here on the faculty. It's amazing and you know I shouldn't be here.
Oh, you absolutely should be here. Well, we'll talk about imposter syndrome, I'm sure, because I have it pretty bad. But anyway, it's just — it was, it's untraditional how you got here. And you've had basically two teaching jobs in your life. You taught middle school and then Michigan. Atypical for sure, you know, but I am so fortunate — I mean, you are so fortunate to be able to work there with such fabulous students and faculty.
And yeah, it's great, but it's it's not normal, I'll tell you that.
Yeah, well, I mean, you frame it so beautifully — someone said no and you said watch this, watch this, which is incredible. John, I have another question. Have you ever written a page of drill?
No. Oh my word, no, I have never. It's funny because for anybody listening, my primary job is I'm the director of the marching and athletic bands at the University of Michigan. I have never written an arrangement, not one. I've never opened Pyware. Never. I have never loved it and I've never done an arrangement. And I was upfront about that because during the interview process with Michael Haithcock, I'm like, look, Michael, I don't do these things. And he's like, why should I hire you? I said, well, two reasons. One, I'm going to recruit students like you've never seen. And two, I'm going to raise a lot of money for the program, and all the other stuff too, right. But so that's where my skill set is. So thankfully I have a fabulous colleague, Richard Fry. He's a genius and he's really good at drill and arranging. And David's written for us. And Andy Putnam, Scott Borma, whom I love dearly, my predecessor here actually himself. Yeah, I've never done that.
Yeah, so many memories just came back to me, John, because you mentioned OU, because we were supposed to go to school together there. I was wrapping up my master's. You were going to come in and start your master's. I was actually building a house in Moore that we were going to share. I had the architect change the bedroom sizes so that they were equal, so there wouldn't be like one primary bedroom. And then I ended up at UTA as the interim associate there and went a completely different direction. But I want to go backwards just for a second. I remember at UTA getting the call from Scott Borma as a reference for you.
That's right. And Scott — I had worked with Scott on arrangements, but I mean, I told him straight out, there's not a better person on the planet. You should hire him immediately. And I'm glad that he did because like your, your legacy at Michigan I think is incredible and it will live on.
It's so weird to say that. Incredible, isn't it? Isn't it crazy? 18 years.
Yeah. So I'm the second longest serving athletic band director behind Revelli, and for me to be in the same company as that name, I have no business being anywhere near that name, you know? But it, it's the Italians are taking over, right? So he and I. So yeah. So you sit in — basically, you rehearse in Revelli Hall, you sit in Revelli's office. So yeah, it's just incredible. I love it. I'll actually use his marked scores on stage and I conduct sometimes with his baton just because it's really pretty cool, I think.
History and legacy. Yeah, it's incredible. I am so happy that you're there. I'm just proud of you. I love you dearly. I want to go a little different direction. I want to talk a little bit about teaching philosophy, and we've talked together for a long time, so I have a pretty good idea of what your philosophy is. But I'd like to dig into: has your philosophy of teaching evolved since you first started in the classroom to now, and what is it — or has it not? Talk to me about that.
Great question. I, I, I think it has and I think that it had to have changed. I think I didn't have a choice. When I was young, kind of like you in a way, but I was even farther off the chart here in terms of it needs to be technically proficient. Whatever we're doing, it has to sound perfect. It has to do all of these things. I think where I'm at now, it's more the people over the process, which is directly because of you and some other people in my professional and personal lives. But I, I do believe that it's people over process. You know, my instructional philosophy is in two parts. One, having really strong relationships that are meaningful and professional, and that's able to create an environment — a laboratory of professionalism, to quote Professor Haithcock — a laboratory of professionalism, an environment that is welcoming, that's supportive, that is going to push them artistically, that is going to just inspire them to be the best person possible. And it's OK to fail. We've been talking about this for the last couple of seasons, right? It's OK to fail. And in fact, to actually — just to steal it from you — to fail forward is such a critical part. So that is one pillar. The other pillar is as a teacher, I have to be on top of every part of my instructional game. I have to know — there's no, in my opinion, there's no way around the teacher not being absolutely proficient in the subject that they're teaching. So for us, teach the instruments. Can you teach the instruments? It's easy. It's yes or no. If the answer's no, then I don't think you're doing your students a service to help them be better, right? So you obviously have to kind of develop them and create a space where it's OK for them to explore. But if there isn't content expertise, I think that's a significant problem. So I'm trying to balance those, you know, because it's easy sometimes for us to be all content and no people. And I think that's a backwards philosophy also, you know, so. But the thing is, throughout my professional life so far, it ebbs and flows. I think it does for all of us, right? But I'm trying every single day to think about the people and the process, and that's where I'm at right now at least.
Yeah, I love the people before process. I like that, that prioritization there. I'm curious when you think about other directors, because you, you obviously have grad students that come through you seen many other teachers in grew up and taught in Texas for quite a while. I'm curious, what do you think most directors misunderstand about developing musicianship through ensemble? Does that make sense?
Sure does. I think that people often get stuck in the weeds, I think for the quest for something to be technically perfect, which what we talked about in the past episode isn't ever going to be achieved because we aren't a computer, right? So then how do you get past that? You know, I mean, it's perfect, great. Is it inspiring? Is it, is it meaningful? Is it heartfelt? Is it compassionate? Does it speak to people? You know, I mean, I think the people component is often missed, you know, but then on the other side too, people take that way the other way, like just sound. That is just gross, you know, but it's meaningful, right? Like what does that mean so well? What does it mean? We'll talk about this later in a pet peeve section, but I am going to kind of tweak it now. A pet peeve of or soapbox is, well, that isn't a musical performance. I need you to explain that to me like I'm a kindergartner. What does the word musical performance mean? And I would argue many of our colleagues don't have an answer for that. And that I think we need to work on as a profession, right? Like, is it a balance of technical precision with artistry? Is it more artistry than technical precision? I mean, there has to be an answer. Except for people that hear a really good band, let's say from the state of Texas. Well, it's a Texas band. They don't, they don't, there's no music there. What does that mean? Like, what does that mean? You know, so I, I, I, I think that's where many people get it wrong, you know, but you have to, you've got to be really good as a technical pedagogue. You have to be. But you also have to get the art, you know, and how you'd achieve that is something that actually I have learned from you because you are just brilliant at this, being able to kind of meld the two pieces. And that's such an important part, yeah.
I totally agree and I'm I'm looking forward to the pet peeve section. Now I wanted to jump backwards. You said, you mentioned you said the word imposter syndrome and we did talk about it last week a little bit on my episode. But I'm curious, tell me you said you experienced it. Tell me how you dealt with it and what advice do you have for all of us out there that are still dealing with it?
Yeah, I mean I experience imposter syndrome significantly and pretty much every day. I mean I'm at a place where everyone is much smarter and more talented and that is a truthful sentence. It isn't self deprecating. I mean, people here on the faculty at Michigan, even my students, my students are brilliant. Like I'm going, I don't, I'm just going to color in the corner, you know, I'm going to try to keep it in the lines, you know, but. We have the best saxophone studio in the world. We have like one of the best composition studios in the world, best euphonium studio. I mean, pick your thing and you're looking around going wow, Grammy, 6 Grammys, Oscar, you know, I mean, you're just looking around and going wow, this is such a vibrant and kind of masterful faculty to be a part of. And here's me, you know, you know, I like pizza. I play the tuba, you know, but how I get over it is kind of like how I got through my speech impediment things. I'm like, look, I was hired for a specific reason. I know what I'm doing, so do it. And if people don't like it, I mean, I just gave a gesture for people.
Yeah, I was going to say yeah. For their listeners, there is a gesture.
I mean it's look, I mean, are you going to please everybody? Nope. So then you just do what you do and do it really well and take it seriously, but not too much, you know, I mean, we have a saying in our office. It's just band now. We want to be the best college band out there. Great, right? What does that mean, though? You know, do you want to perform well? Yes. Want to be good people? Yes. You want to teach students to patron art for the rest of their lives? Yes. Do you want to help them build the life skills to go change the world? Yes. All of those things. That's the best college band program to me. We aim to achieve that every single day, you know, but the imposter syndrome for anybody feeling it, I sympathize with you. Please be sure to send me an e-mail. I'm happy to kind of talk to you about this. It's look, you were hired for a specific reason. You're the content expert. And yes, you are good enough to be there, you know, and it's OK to be vulnerable. It's OK to kind of doubt yourself. At least I tell myself that because I do it every day, you know, but it's, I also think it like makes me stronger in a way. It makes me more hyper focused. It makes me, for me, I love the stress of the game of the job, right? It's extremely visible, a lot of touch points. There's a lot of things that go into this and I love that stress. It's a puzzle for me and it just kind of pushes me, but that's how I ultimately get through imposter syndrome is just to put my head down and just ram, right. Just go through it.
Well, let's talk about that. So your job is stressful. There is a million pieces that have to all work together and function seamlessly and I'm sure there's people out there that are not juggling as many things as you are, but they're juggling in their own way for sure. How do you do it? How do you keep this moving forward in a way that it's a well oiled machine because I've seen your program, it runs like a well oiled machine. So what advice do you have for us that are out there not as clearly moving forward?
You know, I think for anyone that has questions about this, my advice to you first is to breathe and just know it's going to be OK. At the end of the day, are the students safe? Are they having an excellent experience? And are you teaching them music? Those three things you can, you can kind of get through everything else. However, though, there is no substitute for being really prepared. There is hardly a time I ever walk into a situation where I'm unprepared for some outcome. Now things will happen, right? But it's always easier to be reactive if you're extremely proactive. So I hate going into a situation where I am reactive because that's when errors occur, right? So on our team, we are very proactive and by calendar years, even so much so that like we kind of think about every touch point in terms of operations and logistics and fundraising and PR alumni relations, the creative piece. I mean, all the things. If we are extremely proactive, things are just better and more, they just flow more smoothly, right? And things happen. We've all had them, right? It's just how do you deal with those things? When you're reactionary, you're often times emotional. You are not clear headed. You just make judgment errors because you're, it's just right. But if everything else is well thought through, the systems work, the processes are well rehearsed, you can navigate those things because you also rehearse the unexpected, like I know we do all the time. We are thinking about what if, then this, this, this and this. And if we're not thinking about that, I think it's a disservice to our students. Where I'm at, we are a student centered operation. Everything is about the student experience. Sometimes that means telling them no, that's OK, you know, but it's a part of the experience. If I'm not prepared, it takes away from the student experience. That's where I'm coming from.
Yeah, I love that. Speaking of your students, let's talk about Michigan. So you've been there 18 years?
18 years.
And that's a lot of marching band shows. That's a lot of experiences in general. I'm curious what stands out in your mind? Like this is the best thing we've accomplished, we've done the most whatever. Like what's top because you've done a lot of stuff.
There, we've done a lot of things. It's pretty incredible. I mean, people ask this a lot when I go speak at various events all over the world, they ask this same question. You know, I mean, and we've done performances, we've collaborated with Beyoncé and the New York Philharmonic, Wynton Marsalis. We just did a concert with Chad Smith this past week. And I mean, I've had things, I've had words that I've typed have been read from the International Space Station twice. You know, it's weird things like, we have weird jobs, you know. But what I am most proud of is every day at rehearsal and no one sees it. It's the teachers, it's the students. We're engaging in the music making process. There's nothing better than that. And that's what I am most proud of. If a student has a better day because they came to band, if I teach them to appreciate art, if they got 2% better on their articulations that day, you know, all the other stuff is great. But frankly, I don't really care about that so much. I care about the student experience most and honestly that's what drives me.
That's perfect. That's why I love you, Jeff. I just made it all up.
I love you.
I've got a few more questions for you in different areas. First off, let's talk 18 years. What do you want to accomplish now in the next 10, 12, 15 years that you have left?
That's too long, by the way. Five years. Anybody listening? I love my job. I want to retire as fast as possible, but I love my job. No, I mean, what do I want to do? You know, now even still, like I want to continue to give my students the best possible experience, which means I want to set the program up to be as stable and successful as possible. How do you do that? That's going to be kind of structural things. So you're going to want to build the infrastructure, not in terms of actually building, you know, but you're going to create a financial framework where they're going to be set forever. Because we do quite a bit of fundraising in endowments so that the funds are in perpetuity. So like having show design endowments that'll help whoever follows me create the best halftime shows possible, create faculty lines that are endowed so that they're always going to be there. You know, those kinds of things. Build all of that. Have it be as strong as possible. My goal on that side of things is as I leave, there's no other college band program in the world that has what Michigan has. That's my goal.
And I'll tell you, I think you probably already are ahead of everyone else.
I think so in many, many ways, but the thing I love about this is that your purpose is to leave this better than you found it and that the person that follows you is going to be handed literally the most incredible opportunity.
Because it really is. I've been to your rehearsals, I've conducted the band. I mean, it's just an experience like none other. It really is so.
It is, I mean, it's a responsibility I think that we all have. And actually, my predecessors, they all did the same thing. I mean, think about it, Jamie, Nix, Scott. Except for Scott. Scott. Yeah, it's too much, you know. Love you, Scott. I love you Boma and Kevin and it's all and Jim Tapia and Jeff Grogan. I mean, everyone left it better, right? So I just want it to be as best or as good as it can possibly be, you know. But at the end of the day, I want the students to be proud of their experience from their own perspective, and to have developed a love for music and for art that they're going to patron for the rest of their lives, which means they're going to get subscriptions to the symphony or to the ballet or to a hip hop concert series or contemporary poetry. Pick your thing. Go support art in the community because it's such an important part of who we are as a citizenry, right? It's just critical.
Now I'm shifting completely different. Directed listening model. This is a book we co-authored, but it didn't start there, started much earlier than that. So will you talk to us a little bit about the genesis of that?
Yeah, so when I got to student teaching, I thought I was ready to go. Man, I was so ready. I knew all the instruments, I knew all the stuff, right? I get on the podium, I give this beautiful downbeat. I'll never forget it. I was student teaching at the time with Bill Watson and Bill, genius educator. And I give this downbeat and the sound comes at me and I'm like, I have no idea what to do with this. I say something ridiculous about volume or something because that's the only thing that I could identify that quickly, right? And he looks at me and I forget what he said. He was probably vulgar, but I love Bill, you know, but it was the equivalent of me trying to hang a picture in a house before it burns down. Hang these pictures on the wall before the house burns down. Irrelevant. And that made me really, well one, scared. I was like, how am I going to do this? And two, I was angry that I wasn't fully prepared. But then I'm like, you know what, I'll create my own system to be able to do this. And so I created a process through my dissertation at Oklahoma, which actually we kind of worked on because you were really helpful in that kind of editing process. But so that's how it all started, right? Because it was a balance of teaching myself how to take ensemble sound and break it into parts to just be able to rehearse better, right? Then we took that, completely blew it up and made it more, made it more better, you know, than we did, right? So we took it and we synthesized it between you, me, and Christoph to be more accessible, more helpful, you know. But that's ultimately where it started. And I'm proud of how it started, but I am monumentally more proud of how it ended, right? Because our product, thankfully, I mean we have books on five continents. And it's been a curricular model at some institutions, which is great. And I mean, how fortunate are we to be able to write a book about music and people read it? What?
Yeah, absolutely it is. You know, I am extremely thankful. Well, I'm thankful for so many things, but I'm thankful for you, John, because that was an opportunity of collaboration that I am immensely proud of. It didn't just end up creating a book, you know, it created lifelong experiences and friendships and you know, people that we know and love in Germany like it. There's so many things that grew out of that collaboration. So I am, I'm so thankful to have had that opportunity with you.
You know it's and what is great too, I think is like we are helping teachers kind of think about these concepts in their own ways to be able to advance the art form, right? That's exactly what the two of us are currently doing in the sub-Saharan African project. That is great. We're just taking it all over the place and whatever we can do to help kids. Yeah, I agree.
Yeah, the directed listening model. I just wanted to get some history out there because it's, you know, it's a book we wrote. I guess we finished that almost six years ago now.
Yeah, 2020, 2025. Yeah.
So, you know, it's in five continents and it's grown and it's, I love it, I really do, because everything I think now filters through that model.
Me too, you know, it just really does and it really effects how I rehearse. It affects how I speak to students, the kind of language, the vocabulary, that kind of stuff.
So I was just curious because I know I've had people ask me about it, but I just remember thinking like as we were talking about Oklahoma, this started as your dissertation. This was, I mean you wrote this down and then it's continued to evolve. And I would actually say it's probably evolving even now to some degree.
Oh for sure. And yeah, now we have to write the second one.
Like just write the second one. Make sure you want to go like this. But no more writing. And it is coming. We will do it. How long did it take total to get that on paper? When did we start it?
Took five years.
Was it 5 years? Well, it was a fun process because we did a lot of it in Germany.
Yes, we did quite a bit there. And, and, you know, the first publication of it, we actually wrote a book we couldn't read.
Yes, we did. I have a copy on my desk. The first one I'm like, this is awesome, what the hell does it say? I'm flipping through, like, man, I wish I could read some of this.
None of it, so funny. I remember. Do you remember when we tried to get the German kids to count numbers and like Einstein dried? It was swung almost. It was swung because they go Einstvi and you can't go Einstvi. They don't, they will not separate them. It is not how the language works.
But can't you do it just for the music?
No, like we had to just, we had to create something completely different for them. Do you remember we created like our own? Was it the German language, remember?
Yeah, we changed it.
It wasn't well received. It wasn't, so we ended up with the Gordon system.
There we go. That's hilarious. I just. That memory just popped back. That was fun, man.
It was. That's why we need to write another one. We get to have all those experiences again. That'd be fantastic.
Speaking of fun, John, what do you do for fun?
Yeah, this is an excellent question. And I have gotten like better at this. When I first started teaching, I didn't really have any. I mean, I didn't do much outside of work. And that has changed for me a lot now. You know, I have the most wonderful wife ever. She is genius and wonderful, brilliant, you know, and I spend as much time with her as I possibly can. My friends are very important to me. My family's very important to me, my hobbies. We like to travel. And so we travel with our dear friends, the climbers all over the world. And we love to travel and see things and do all the things, you know, but I've also done some things just kind of for me. So I take 2 Italian classes a week. I'm, I hold a citizenship in the US and in Italy. And so as a part of that, I am trying to learn the Italian language. So on Tuesday nights, that's my academic class. And then on Thursday mornings I take a conversational class from a school in Florence and my teacher is, I mean, she's in her 20s, pink hair, and she just beats the hell out of me. And I love it, right? And it is something for me. So I enjoy studying language and you know, reading and all that kind of stuff. But you know, I do think that having a social life is really important. Anyone listening the job can wait. Now do your job, do it well. But at the end of the day, you have to you've got to have an identity outside of school and there's always going to be more work to do. Let it be, you know, because you only live once and unfortunately life is short. So.
Yeah, well, your answer was better than mine from last week. So I feel like I should shout out to my wife Teresa. She's also the best wife. So I love you Teresa. She's texting me now. I'm curious since we're on the podcast that we created. I'm curious, what do you hope people take away from Common Time podcast?
Wow. I hope that people are going to kind of reaffirm that they are good at what they do, what you're doing every day. You're putting an effort, you're teaching kids, you're teaching music, you're making the world a better place. So I hope that you take away from this, you're good at it. Stick it out. Sometimes things are terrible, but there's a community of people here that are able to help you first of all, right. Then secondly, we can always get better and more efficient at the craft, right? So I hope that people listen and be like, oh, I can think about this way, or I can take this piece and kind of modify it for my own thing. You know, it's kind of like we both did AP90X3, right, kind of workout thing and they modify some things for people that can't do specific things. I kind of think of this as that also just in a specific way, right. So we like want you to take these conversations that we've been having over the past couple of seasons and kind of take the knowledge modify for your own situation and make your students better, right? And I think that those two things are my primary goal. But also too, I think it's important for us to celebrate the success of our profession. And I mean, we've been talking with like teachers, master teachers and artists and composers and at the top of their game. And those people should be celebrated just like every teacher in the public school, or I mean, not just public all schools. I mean, we should just kind of champion the entire profession. And I hope that over the next couple seasons too, we can continue to kind of do that for sure.
Absolutely. I remember we were, Teresa and I were driving to Dallas to see her family and I looked over her. She's the passenger seat. I looked around. I want to start a podcast. And we called you. You did let's start a podcast. And then we brainstormed and literally, I want to say a month later, we just did this thing. And I love doing this. I love that I get to see you. Obviously that's great to always see you and talk to you. But I've learned a lot just having these individuals on and hearing them talk about different topics and getting feedback. So I'm glad we can continue to do this. And I'm really looking forward to kind of where it goes next.
Admission of guilt. The first podcast that I ever listened to was this one. Oh, that's funny. Well. I've never listened to one. And when you said, hey, let's do a podcast because we've had this conversation in multiple things like, hey, do you want to do this? Not really, not really. But here we are. And I'm so glad that we did. I'm so glad you talked me into drum corps because at the cavalry about it, I said, no, I'm like, no, of course I don't want to do that. No, I didn't do that. You want to go to Santa Clara? No. And then here we are. You want to go to Boston? Stop this. But because that you met Teresa and we love her and that's wonderful. So. But anyway, anyway, so yeah, I have never listened to a podcast before.
Yeah, if you just said no to Boston, I wouldn't be married right now. How horrible would that be?
So you're married. I'm happy to. Have so thank you. Joe, you're so. Thank you for your sacrifice. We had more to say. We had more to say. We have, no, we're done saying it. We just have a podcast now.
All right, so we've come to this time in the podcast where we asked three questions of all of our guests. And I want to make certain that we give you the same opportunity. The first is Doctor Pasquale. Do you have a soapbox topic?
Yeah, I do actually and I feel really passionately about this, so I have to set up a little bit. As a band director, it is your job to teach the instruments, period. Folks can do other things to all the skills that go into it, all the things. But at the end of the day, you must teach your students to play the instrument. And there's just no way around it. And I feel really, really strongly about that. Yeah, I mean, I have a couple of other ones, but that one is a big one for me. Teach the instruments. The instruments, which also then means teach the music, you know, I mean, you've got to teach the art. You have to do all those things. But you can't just do those things. You have to be able to teach a clarinet player to play the clarinet. That is your job, you know, So I have many students that take my rehearsal pedagogy classes here and that's what we talk about all the time. You can do all the things, all the things they're important secondary to teaching the instruments. You have to be able to teach the students by their instruments.
Yep. And then secondly, sorry, it says I'm on it. Nope, go.
Who are never too busy than to teach the students in front of you. Don't take attendance while the students are sitting in front of you. Don't do other things when the students are sitting in front of you. When they're there, they get your attention and they need your best. And I also feel strongly about that too.
I love that, that's fantastic. Are there any books that have inspired your journey?
So that stopped reading years ago. After my dissertation and after the book we wrote, yeah, you know, this is going to surprise some people, I think. But I think, well, no, for me, the most formative book for my instructional career is The Art of War by Sun Tzu. It is a book about military strategy. But the lessons that are in there are applicable to every aspect of life.
Very good. And our final question, arguably the most important question. Doctor Pasquale, what is your favorite time signature?
There's just no question. It's common time. I mean this is common time, right? I just want to. Yeah, I mean, I have to agree with you, you know, but my other one, a close, very close second, like really close is going to be 7-8. I'm a 7-8 fan. We have a lot of seven eights on these episodes. But I'm a 7-8. We do, you know.
I answered common time as well and I think we both should have said that. I don't know if my close second would be 7-8 or not. I do really like 7-8, but there have been some mistakes that I've made on concerts before because of 7-8. So damned if I do, damned if I don't, yeah. You know, I do think we should get paid by the meter change. This is true. I would do AGN festival every day. That's true. I love that piece. That's the piece I would always use in conducting class to teach asymmetric meter. I love that piece. So, well, Professor, it has been so great to just hear from you and hear about you and your life and your passions and all the things. For everyone out there, this is exactly why I love John Pasquale. And I'm so glad, he's my best friend in the world and I'm just so thankful that we have this time together. So thank you again, Doctor Pasquale.
Thank you, Doctor. Appreciate your time. Thanks for everybody for listening.
That's it for today's episode of the Common Time Podcast. And thank you for spending time with us. We hope that today's conversation will give you something useful to take back to your students and your program. And if you enjoyed this episode, make sure you subscribed so you don't miss what's coming up. And if you know another director who might benefit from this, please share it with them. Also, don't forget you're able to nominate a music educator for our Standing Ovation program. The link to submit is in the show notes below. Thanks again for joining us on the Common Time podcast. As always, keep making music and keep making a difference.