Hi everybody, and welcome back to Season 3 of the Common Time podcast. We're so glad to have you here to continue bringing our conversations, insights, and inspiration for music educators everywhere. Each week, we'll highlight voices from across the music world and share ideas that you can bring directly into your classroom and to your ensembles. And now let's turn to our guests for today. Our guest today is David Vander Walker. Welcome, David.
Thank you.
So David is the former coordinator of Performing Arts for the Fulton County Schools in Atlanta, GA, and he has written extensively and spoken extensively about the subject of booster clubs. And today we're excited to dive into booster club culture. So John, get us started.
Yes, hi David, it's an honor to see you and you know this is such an important topic and so I am really excited to hear the perspective that you have. So I'm just going to dive right in. Over the years you have written and worked with a wide range of booster clubs and written specifically about how they are formed and organized and the culture of those. So are you able to summarize what the characteristics are of a high functioning healthy band booster organization?
Yeah, that's such a challenging topic, obviously, because everything is different, whether it's urban or suburban or small, large, all that. But to me, I think maybe, John, the best way to answer it is when I became director of bands in Cobb County, we were in a — my pleasure of going through three school splits and right the beginning of mine, we had a hundred kids go to Kennesaw Mountain with Dave Starnes opening up that just six miles down the same street. And so we realized at that point that we needed to revamp some things. It was perfect timing. So we did a kind of an analysis of things. And I guess what we figured out is there were kind of like a hub of like 6 things that needed to happen. And I kind of did some — put the researcher hat on and I looked at a lot of programs like Solaer Flag of Honor programs or folks that went to Grand Nationals or played at Midwest — what were some commonalities there. And so I kind of came to the conclusion that there were six hubs. Those people were really passionate about what they did. Well, we had passion, but they also had some systems in place and they implemented them with strategy. And so at that point we were like every booster club in America almost where it was like a small handful of parents doing stuff and reinventing the wheel year after year. So we focus on 6 things: community and building a volunteer army. We needed to function more like a business model. I've said for years that we as the music teacher, the band directors, orchestra teachers, course directors, whatever — we're the leader of a CEO of a people oriented small business with a serious music problem. Now I say that in jest because I'm really serious about my music making, but that's the part we don't get in music school, right? I mean, there's so much — and that's not a diss on music school obviously, because we're guided by NASM of what we can provide and all that kind of stuff. But so much of what I find stress points for directors today have very little to do with music making. It's all the other stuff, right? I know you guys experience that, right? Your life is exactly the same in that capacity. So to me when we think about that, how do businesses function and how do they create blueprints and systems to be effective on the business side of it all — that is people oriented. And so with that also means we have to think about some compliance and government compliance with our county, state, federal, those kinds of things. And then there's obviously the fundraising part of it, which I think that's the biggest question that comes about, but I know we'll talk more about it at some point I bet. But a lot of people think of fundraising first when they hear booster club, but there's so much more to that. And then the last part of it, which is the culminating part of it, is communication — and then how do we do those five things strategically? And so to me, the highest functioning organizations are the ones that have some systems in place and implement them strategically. So to me, that's — and the most common denominator is that we don't have any training in any of that. So we tend to let it kind of go and pray that nothing catastrophic happens or that they like their child enough that they like me or something. I mean, we keep our fingers crossed.
Yeah, no, absolutely. That's absolutely like — I'm just thinking of booster club experiences that I've had. And some of them I walked into as an associate director and the director of bands was in place and there was a specific relationship there that was may or may not have been working well. And then in other situations where it was working well, the difference there for me was how he dealt with the people. Like the people aspect of it was so important. So I'm curious, kind of thinking through that — what are some of the most common pitfalls that you see in booster club culture? And then how can directors really help avoid or address them if it's necessary?
Yeah. You know, I think it's really similar to our student culture and our program culture. And I think the breakdowns are pretty universal and common. I guess I should say that when booster clubs aren't working well, I wonder — are the student organizations working well? You know, what's the culture in the classroom? Is there a correlation to the culture in the classroom and the parent organization? Regretfully, I think there often is a strong correlation, unfortunately. So to me, one of the hats I wear is servant leadership association for music. And when we talk about culture and crafting culture, one of the things that we really focus on is that relationship element and the communication element. I was talking about this a while ago and I think, you know, someone once said a toddler asks the question why like 2000 times a day. Well, I'm not sure it's quite 2000, but I'm sure it feels like that — but that's human nature. It's instinctive of us to want to know why. And I think a lot of us as directors do a great job laying out our purpose and our mission statement, even with our students and our program. But when I ask parents and directors across the country, can you tell me what your mission statement is, I get blank stares. Like even if they have it, we don't do a very good job communicating it or getting it really identified well. And so to me, when we talk about the strategic plan part, it's just like a school — all of our schools, regardless of what level, what discipline we have, like a school improvement plan or whatever the label of it is. And so all that starts with defining purpose, our core values, and our mission statement. And so I think that's one of the common pitfalls and why things kind of get messed up at times is because we haven't defined them. Or perhaps we need to do a better job when parents walk in the door defining what is our purpose — why do we exist? What do we value in this program? As a director, what do I value in that? And then how do we address those things by using a big funnel of making sure that our goals and our strategies of how we want to achieve those goals get aligned. And then the part that creates the biggest pitfall for programs is — as I like to say, kind of like a lot of our church environments — we like to meet and eat and talk about how everybody else should do their job. And so we don't get very good at doing the action plans.
Meet and eat. I haven't heard that before. That's true, yeah.
So I mean, to me, that's kind of the key — we need to work together in creating a culture that is based on relationships. And part of that culture needs to be that we all understand, and perhaps we collaborate on that together, but we all understand what our mission is and what's our goal here and why are you here? Why do we need you? A lot of the problems with getting volunteers — simply we don't do a very good job declaring the need and communicating the need. So to me, that's the biggest pitfall — in that people side you're talking about, we haven't done a very good job of welcoming people in and staying true to what we need as directors. Every business plan you look at, one of the first things is what's our mantra? What's our purpose? Why are we here? And then everything funnels to that. And that's the same thing as a school improvement plan or whatever. So to me, that's the biggest pitfall because the job is so demanding. It's really easy to just walk in the door and just do band today and then tomorrow we get in another cycle of we're just doing band today. I mean, there's so many discussions you've had with previous guests about how we design rehearsals and how we do different things from a curriculum standpoint. And the people that just show up and do band — it's really the same challenge. And it's not a criticism, it's just the job is so demanding and diverse that it's easy to get in a rut of survival mode instead of intentionality and strategy.
Yeah. You know, and I would love just to walk in the room and do band. Wouldn't that be great?
Yeah, I would love that. Open the score, teach the score, have a fantastic experience artistically, close the score, and that would be it.
Yeah, you know. So much more, but.
You know, and there's so much more. I mean, kind of like you, David — in Cobb, your ensembles were incredible. And but you also had a successful booster organization. And I would argue that's not always, but it's rare that both of those things occur at the same time.
Yeah, well —
Please.
Well, I was just going to say, I think David said this a moment ago and I so agree with it. There is a correlation between what's happening in the classroom largely and what may or may not be happening in a booster club. Because even going through my own example, I was thinking through that going — you know, I know for me personally, the relationship with my students, what that looks like, what that feels like, that culture is what I wanted over there too. And I'm very much aligned with you on the idea of a mission statement, value, vision statement, core values — those things just through the business world. I've always looked at my programs like that and I've had my student leaders sit down with me and create a mission statement. And I walked out of the room, I gave them the guidance and I came back and they had written an unbelievable statement about what this was for them. And from that point forward, everything — any issue that came up was one of two things. It was miscommunication or misalignment. It was really one of two — there's a communication issue or we weren't aligned with our mission. And I can address either of those very quickly by going, well, let's talk through that. There's the communication lapse there — how do we fix that? Or this doesn't seem aligned with what we believe we're here to accomplish. But if you don't have that at the forefront, then you're spinning your wheels. It is survival mode if you don't, so I love all that.
Another key part of what you just talked about is that you engaged your students in developing that mission statement. And so something critical from a culture standpoint happened in that moment where they felt autonomy in what they were doing because they had some ownership in that. And so that becomes a game changer in the moment when our students aren't doing something out of obligation or out of compliance, or just because Doctor C says we got to do it. They have the autonomy in that and the ownership of that, and that becomes very different from a motivation standpoint. And the same thing is true of parents as well.
Yeah. And I've never thought of it that way. I've never thought of getting the parental component aligned in the same way that I've done with my students. So that is such a fantastic insight. You know, because we've all seen really successful booster programs — right now in the job that I have, we have 300 high schools represented in the Michigan Marching Band. So we have students that are coming from all over the world really that have very specific experiences in their programs, and just talking to their directors or just even reading up on social media or just seeing the schools that David Clemmer and I visit across the country. There are times when booster organizations aren't healthy. And I think we'll probably get to that later on. But I think part of it has to do with us as directors setting boundaries that are clearly articulated, well thought through — but also what's the point and how do we kind of work together? Because oftentimes when things are adversarial, the roles aren't really well defined, or there's a significant age gap between the director and the parent group and one's well established. And you know, there are a thousand reasons for this. But so my question is, from your research and experience, how can we as directors establish boundaries in a professional and healthy way while maintaining a collaborative and respectful relationship with the organization?
Yeah, it's funny. The boundaries are hard because you're right, many times the directors aren't much different in age than our parents, and many times younger than our parents. And so to me, I like to think of things about being proactive. And I think the more times — like for example, when we set up those purpose statements and the mission statement, that helps us be proactive in why we're here and helps create some boundaries just in and of themselves from a functionality standpoint. And then how do we remove that whole I, me moment? Because that's another part of the challenge — through virtually all of elementary school and middle school, parents are conditioned to be I, me people and to advocate for their kid and what's in it for me. And you get to high school and then it's suddenly, no, we're in this to provide enrichment for all of our children. We're in this team thing in a collaboration. And that's a very different mindset shift for people that have been thinking about I, me, and my kid forever, right? So that's part of the initial challenge and why some boundaries are needed. And so I tried to think about it from a boundary standpoint in a slightly different way — setting parameters and establishing why we're here. And that goes back to the Simon Sinek thing, start with why. So that's why the purpose and all that helps. But to me, I think I often share — like in some Boosters Institute training, when we're talking about developing a strategic plan and going through how we develop that — the first thing of the purpose statement in the bylaws should state why we're here. And it's for two reasons: to provide physical and financial support beyond what the school district can provide. That's it, period. It's not about policy, it's not about whatever. And I go into the story about — you know, I've been on Delta out of Atlanta now for almost 30 years. I can't tell you how many thousands of dollars I've spent on tickets and how many thousands of hours I've invested flying on Delta. But one of two things would happen if I suddenly jumped up while I'm on the plane and ran down the aisle and pounded on the cockpit door and said, Mr. Pilot, turn this plane around — I'd end up in jail or a rubber room, because no matter how much time and money I've invested in Delta, I don't have the right to fly the plane. And so I share that with parents. OK, so what's our purpose? It's to provide physical and financial support. And the other element that I say is that we are partners in education, just like Home Depot, Target, you name it. So if Home Depot was going to give $100,000 to your school and they were going to do like a science lab — would you want them dictating what happens in chemistry or what happens in the physics classroom? Or do you want your science department chair or your principal to make those decisions? Well, duh — no, they don't want Home Depot making those decisions. OK, well, the music classroom is no different. You're a partner in education, collaborating with your director who is really the CEO of that entity. And there's no other entity quite like it in the country because yes — I'm praying you're all 501-C3, right? And so that's just like the Cancer Foundation or anything else. And yes, technically you are a separate entity and you can do what you want, but it's not the same. You're a partner in education, right? And so to me, helping set those boundaries and being upfront with that is really important. And I think the other part of it, David, is a lot of it comes down to trust. Almost every conflict we have on your faculty, on my faculty, and in booster clubs — it's all based on a trust relationship breakdown and that somebody is wanting something and they're prioritizing more of their will over ours. And so if we recognize that, then we have to apply that knowledge and how do we, how do we make it a win in that environment? But a lot of times I think it's just about making sure that we're proactive and like with our leadership, let's be upfront and let's collaborate and let's make sure that we're engaging them in that process. Pretty much just like David was talking about with his student leaders. Let's I talk about it in the collaborative action that we do together as reflect, imagine and diagnose. And so like reflect on what could be. But then let's imagine what's possible and think kind of Disney big, right? They've had the best imaginations ever. And then let's decide, OK, well, what's doable where we are and then, OK, well, if these five things are doable, which two should we start with that would impact the growth best? And so I think when we have those kinds of discussions, when we've had purpose statements, we've got mission statements, we know what we're communicating well, what our purpose is, I think that tends to kind of intuitively set those boundaries and parameters that we can then function in and then also have capacities from which we can put guardrails if we need and a lot of that and how we get our officers there a lot of other kind of stuff in that. But to me, I think it's about relationships more than anything. And I read a book years ago, so a national bestseller called the Like Switch, and it's written by a couple of FBI agents trying to develop relationships with their undercover people and what they learn from that. And they came up with a formula and it talks about proximity, frequency, duration and intensity. And that's what we need to develop those core relationships. I talked to parents about it. Like you go to someplace, go to a meeting, whatever. Where do you who do you leave your kids with? People you trust, right. OK. So how do you, how do you get to a point where you trust people? Well, you've been around them a lot. You spend a lot of time with them, you've had some intensity time. And that formula plays out like most of us, the loading crew, dads, pit crew, whatever you want to call them, they're probably our tightest bonded group, right? Because they've had proximity, frequency, duration, intensity, right? And so if we know as directors that is real, that there's a formula out there and we need to build more relationships and we have to figure out which one of those prongs do we need to invest in? Do we need to create some time? Maybe it's creating a one-on-one with some of our boosters, like once a month are key people, right? Like for me, I had an open door policy for about 5 people. They came in, I knew they needed attention because they were my extension. They were my tentacles. But if I was having trouble with somebody, maybe I just needed to invest a little more time intentionally. Maybe it's a more intensity or maybe a greater frequency to develop those relationship parts. Because to me, those boundaries are almost always a conflict that we didn't communicate correctly or we haven't set the boundaries and clearly define people's roles and why they should be here and what they should be doing.
But yeah. I love that. Proximity, frequency, duration, intensity. That's exactly I'm thinking if I want to build trust with someone. That's a pretty simple formula if I'm really thinking about it. If I'm not in proximity to that person, no trust. If I'm not seeing that person enough, no trust. If I'm seeing them for five seconds, not enough. Like that makes complete sense. It's so simple. That's if you're listening, write that down.
That's yeah, I put those on the board behind me like that's important.
Yeah. It's the university, it's your administrator, it's your everything. When there's a moment, if you can go for coffee and find out who they are and what they are instead of every time they see our face, it's because we want something that they can't offer usually, you know.
Yeah, it's pretty powerful. That's just fantastic. A minute ago you mentioned you said something to the effect that like booster clubs was sort of known as they're the fundraisers, the focus is fundraising, but there really is so much more to this. So I'm curious, how would you address really guiding parent organizations to support programs beyond this idea that, hey, we're just here to raise the money, we're just here to work the concession stand? Like how do you guide them into a different kind of ownership I suppose?
Yeah, I was really lucky at Harrison. The school up in 91, I got there in 96. And so the parent community was pretty small. Again, like as I mentioned earlier, four or five people really do most of the work, but they came to us. I was there with Scott Wiese, who now director of orchestras at South Carolina. You guys have some history there in different capacities, but they came to us and said if it doesn't require a music Ed degree, can you empower us to do it? And that was huge. That is huge. Right, because the whole goal is creating a win for the student. And the moment that I can empower a parent to take over something that needs to be crunched for an administrator or I'm proud to say, and 22 years in secondary education, I never solicited a chaperone one time. Now we had chaperones, right? We had chaperone training. I peer reviewed the list, you know, I knew stuff that might be confidential to say, OK, maybe this person can be on a local trip, but they can't go overnight. Or maybe this person just need to be on the list or these are great. So I curated the list and I had someone that I liaisoned with who was our parent chaperone, but that didn't require a music education degree, right? So if it doesn't require music education degree, I'm the only one in the room that's uniquely trained to handle those things. But there's so much more that happens for your kids that doesn't require a music ed degree. I was thankful that was their mindset because then it was on me to empower them. And that's a keyword not dump on, not delegate. I don't even like that word. I like empower because that implies that when we delegate, we're giving them enough information to be successful. Right. And so to me that became huge because if I can save an hour of that admin time, the next hour I get to figure out how to make tomorrow's rehearsal better for your kid. So to me that's a huge mindset of creating win wins. And the other part, I think in today's society, we all want experiences, right? I mean, everything is based on that. We can't just go to a movie anymore. It has to be an experience. You can't just go to a concert anymore. And it's like now we have the whole sphere in Vegas, right? So for me, booster clubs, there's another book out there called the Power of Moments, Dan Heath. And it talks about how we create intrinsic motivation by creating powerful moments or experiences. And so if we can try to create more experiences within our community that our kids can have the time to shine, whether it's a concert in the park environment where it's for the whole community, but yet we also bring up like the elementary orff ensemble with the middle school jazz bands, the middle school concert bands, and we let the winter guard perform and we had all that, then it's a community environment, but it's an experience we're creating. And then the point goes back to the why. Why do we need help? Because we're providing enrichment for our kids, whether it's a performance experience, whether it's raising some money so they have a performance experience. Because the other part of it is that I grew up in the middle of nowhere Oklahoma. Not to offend anybody, but I was really proud of my experience, had an amazing education and music program. And so if it wasn't for that, I wouldn't have gotten out of that small little town. And it provided me an opportunity to experience some things about me and discover my full realm of possibility and get out. And so I wanted that for every kid in my program. But when I graduated high school, I went to work every day. My mom was ill, and my total household income was less than $6000 a year. So if there was a kid like me in Kennesaw, GA, I want to make sure they had the opportunity of those experiences. And sometimes that means we have to work a little harder to raise some money or we need to make sure that we're providing those experiences that are reaching every kid. And so to me, that's why the booster club is so important. It's not just to sell. And hopefully we don't sell much stuff because that's just a band tax in my mind, because parents are the ones that buy all that crap anyway. And so, you know, let's create experiences that can raise money but also promote what we're doing, like making music and having community and those kinds of things.
That's fantastic. For our listeners, the book you mentioned was The Power of Moments.
Yeah, thanks for clarifying that, yeah.
Yeah, I did. Just a bell went off in my head. I just received a package from Richard Crane. He'll send me books from time to time. He just sent me a book Upstream.
Yes, that's great. Yeah. So I'm just starting that book. But that author is one definitely to connect with. Yeah. I quote some of the upstream stuff in our crafting culture book as far as, again, being intentional and yeah, upstream and how you react to things and yeah. So it's great. Yeah. So it's a great author definitely to take a look at if you're listening out there.
I'm just going to change directions on John. Does that sometimes I like to change flares. My hands get all fired, but so there are probably listeners out there right now that are going, I don't have an organization like this. I don't understand it. I've heard it, but this is overwhelming or I don't understand how to start. So are you able just to talk us through at a fundamental level the ideal structure of a booster organization? Are there specific roles or committees or other things that would tend to have the biggest impact? And are there things to stay away from just at a general level?
Yeah, well, I have a book out there called Strategic Plan for Successful Booster Clubs. And I don't mind plugging it because whatever royalties I get out of it goes back to a leadership scholarship back at Harrison. But it has a lot of stuff in it that relates to different roles and responsibilities, whether you're a small program, large program or big program. So like maybe you can help people not start from scratch. But the key to that I go back to the business model. OK, so businesses create a purpose and a mission and they have a business strategy of we this is our goal of what we plan to generate or to do that our board of directors will say you're being successful, right? Same thing with our music programs, etcetera. So what they do is they build a board or a panel of people to do specific jobs that will actually fulfill the task and the strategies that the goals by the company have set, right? And then what they do, that's why Indeed exists, right? So that you can build a job description and go find the people with the best skills and experiences that can fulfill your goal to give you the highest probability of achieving the desired stated goal, right. So to me, that's what we should be doing as a booster club. So once you look at your stated goals, I would say 99% of the booster clubs that I consult with and have worked with, they all look like a parent teacher organization or a subdivision homeowner association, right? President, vice president, and I'm not trying to be political here, but does anybody know what a vice president does outside of filling in when the president's gone? So those don't really help us. So to me, regardless of where you are, I think it's identifying what your goals are and what objectives we need. So we started when we did that reorg after the first school split I was talking about earlier, we figured out on those five things about communication, community, those kinds of things. And we redesigned our board with a little bit of a different mindset. So we made sure that we had directors of something which implies that you're working with others giving direction, not you're on your own. And we got rid of the word committee and called it project teams and project team leaders. So again, establishing that mindset. And so really the hardest part is twofold of why we have difficulty getting volunteers. It's because A, we don't give enough information. And so there's this big myth uniform chair. Oh, no, I could never do that. But if we go back to building those business blueprints, so we can show you, here's the 10 things you would do as a uniform chair and you'll have to do these two this month and these two the next month. That seems more doable. Same thing at the bigger picture level, John, it's like, all right, well, if I can tell you what the president needs to do and then we're going to have maybe not a vice president, but maybe a VP for project management. So someone's going to oversee and help us with the various projects. And then maybe we don't really need a secretary, parliamentarian person, maybe we just give that to someone else's role to take minutes, right. So we have to decide, I've only got four or five people, what do I do? OK, well, maybe you need someone that's going to oversee operations and someone who's going to oversee fundraising or revenue, whatever it is, or the project team leader, doesn't matter. But the key is breaking it down to four or five roles wherever you're starting out, because that's kind of where we're looking at. And then defining those jobs well and then analyzing it. Have I created a job that anybody could do in my community? Or is this job list too overbearing and too intimidating for our working parents who do everything that they've got in their life and have other kids and all that? And so that's usually the biggest pitfall is maybe we need to have some key officers of the organization, but we create some other roles that don't require as much time, but then are achievable by those different people. They can be the project team. So when we started out, we had like a director of operations and a director of communication because that dealt with some of the other elements and our treasurers dealt with some of the compliance elements, right? And then our VP of project management did some various things. But then as the organization started to grow, then we had to break those jobs out into smaller pieces again so that they're achievable by working parents that have multiple kids. So to me, the key is that we have active roles that we are creating roles for people where work can be done on site at home at 9:00 after the kids have gone to bed or whatever, that we're breaking it down with specificity in those business blueprints so that they can do things successfully. Another thing that I think is important, we talking about connections. One of the biggest things that I think helps people grow organizations quickly is what we call section liaisons. And so it's kind of like in elementary school, it's like the class mom, class dad, right? And so if we have section liaisons, it's just like our student section leader, but from a parent organization. So that they're going to be the flute section liaison. That means I get to talk to you because your kid does what my kid does. And then we get to develop relationships. So when you hand out T-shirts or you hand out different stuff, how many different moments can we create for that liaison parent to interact with the other parents whose kid does the same thing? And now we're building connection and relationships. And then what that does is gives us the ability to get to know people better. So when we go back to that Indeed idea about a job description and matching people, now we've got different people in our organization that know other people with enough specificity that you might know that person would be a great fit for a role because they kind of like doing that, they're kind of good at that. Because that's the biggest problem of growing an organization is people don't know what to do. And we don't know enough as directors or have enough time to focus on it too much that we just take anybody who will say yes and we go, hallelujah, thank you, and keep moving. So we have to define our roles in a modern way. And then we have to get to know our people well enough that we can plug them into roles that are empowered with information so they can be successful. And when you do that, magic happens, right? Because you've got someone that has information, they want to help their kid be successful, they've gotten information to do it and they're doing stuff they like to do. Boom. Now you've got someone who will help again next year and keep going, right. And the other part I didn't mention to your question, John, is that I think it's important to do co-roles as soon as you can because it's safety in numbers, right? All of us would say it was better when I had a co-teacher than when I had to do it all myself. And the parent organization is the same way, right? So if we can do a co-role, even if it's like co-treasurer or co-director of operations, technically they only get one vote on the board if it's a voting board person or whatever, that doesn't really matter. What matters is I've got your back, and I'm willing to volunteer. If I travel with work or whatever, I'm not going to be able to be there all the time. So instead of saying no, I can't do the job, I can go, oh, well, if I can pair up and be a co with this person, then that creates a win, win. And it's more safe, right. And so just like with our students, we want to create safe spaces where people are willing to try new things and take risks to get better.
Yeah. OK. So I love the modernization of that you're talking about. Could you also speak to some strategies for effectively onboarding and sort of training this new booster members that are coming in?
Yeah, I think it goes back to kind of an extension of what I was just talking about. We need to create those defined roles and responsibilities. And then once we have that, we can actually train people and guide people and nurture them, right, because we have that information. One of the biggest challenges to your point, David, is that we do oral history, we do things out of turnover, institutional knowledge. And then there's turnover. So the co role we just talked about, if you can figure that out to make it a senior parent co-ing with a sophomore parent, now you're building an institutional knowledge that has some sustainability in that. But the key is documenting. It's kind of like when we do score study, I don't throw that score away and you don't either. That's a lot of work, but the next time we revisit that piece of music, we're not having to start from scratch again, right? We're refreshing, maybe exploring some new things and where am I today versus where I was the last time? And do I want to interpret this any differently or have I gained new scholarly knowledge that I didn't have before? But we're not starting from scratch. You've got the blueprint from our in depth work before. So we can do that for our booster club. Then that helps in that capacity of keeping that sustainability. And the turnover issue isn't as big a deal because whoever's coming in next, we've got hopefully a hard copy and in the cloud somewhere, whether it's in the band app or whether it's in a Google Drive or whatever. Then we've got the way to hand over the power of the information for someone to kind of reload but not have to reboot.
Yeah, indeed. Perfect. So we touched on this a couple questions ago, but maybe just a bit more specifically, in the event that there's some conflict that arises between the organization and the director or the faculty, how do you recommend directors handling conflict when parent expectations clash with the program's educational priorities or vision?
Yeah, as I've said, I think proactive strategy is your best weapon in all of that because it minimizes the opportunity for that to occur. But nothing's foolproof, right? I mean, it's going to happen. And to me, I think in those moments, just out of my own personal experience, I feel like it's important to keep hearing in the back of my mind Doctor Tim Watson Heiser saying it's better to be kind than to be right. And sometimes that's important for us and we feel challenged as directors that we want to have the answer and we're right. But I think it's more about those conflicts tend to happen out of misinformation. They tend to happen out of miscommunication. And then probably 5 to 10% of them is that they're just whacking crazy and have a different perspective that can't be justified. So when we think about that, the first thing we need to remember is that those people just want to be heard. They want to be seen and heard 90 plus percent of the time. So we need to be gracious, we need to be kind and we need to listen. And then that's when we need to use some good listening techniques, right? We need to make sure that we're offering some opportunities to explain, not defensively, but when we hear questions and we hear challenges of things, then we explain the why. Because I've found that if I just explain the why, maybe I haven't done that and I just apologize for it. You know, I'm really sorry if I haven't really explained a good reason why my policy is that we do this or why. And then if I can explain those two or three reasons why we've come to that conclusion and formed the policy this way, at least they may not agree and we may agree to disagree, but at least I've explained the why and the purpose and I've heard them in that moment. And on the worst case scenarios, just for that to occur, most of it will settle. They may go away not satisfied, but not going to go away angry and continue to fester the problem, right? But the other side of that coin is there's a good chance that they may have a point that we haven't thought about, right? And if, as the director, if I'm not willing to think that through or be able to define why it is I've made the decisions, then I deserve to be challenged.
Sorry. That's a good point. You know, I wouldn't go as far to say that sometimes the issues are because of the director ego. 100% right, because if we're thinking about collaboration and we're engaging people in the process and we're open, those things happen far less.
Yeah, I completely agree, John. It's our egos are important, but they're often our biggest enemy. Like in even in my own stuff, like I'm the dumbest one in the room. And that's done on purpose, right? You hire the best people and you get the hell out of their way, right?
100 percent. And so like, it's inherent though, we all have an ego, right? I mean, I think we have to be as a performer and as a — I mean, to do what we do, it is what it is. But I do think that the issues that have happened, especially if it comes to parents, and especially — not stuttering, that's just two of them just for emphasis — is that especially if there's an age gap there, the ego causes the problem.
Well, it's ego and assumption, right? Those two things are the death of a positive relationship in any way, really. And I think, David, you may have in Texas come across some Peter Farido working with student leadership stuff. And Peter taught me once years ago, a real enlightenment for me. And it was when you have a conflict or you see a student that's behaving in a way that is unfavorable to you, if you can look past that moment and try to get to the why that student is behaving that way, it radically empowers you in how you respond and how you choose to respond in those moments. And I think, John, that's a similar thing. It's when we can look at that moment of conflict and issue and try to get past what's coming out of their mouth and try to get to the why, it can help us not be as defensive in how we respond. And if we are open and trying to come with the true win, not just protecting our own turf, then we have a chance to actually listen and for that person to be seen. But then also if we can get to the why — was their kid embarrassed? Did we maybe not handle that part of it correctly? Are they driving with an ego issue that's related to what their kid does and they see them? But whatever the issue is, if we can kind of get past the front layer and try to think a little bit deeper, then I think we're going to get to resolution faster that way too.
I absolutely agree. I think you're probably going to find that some of the answers you've already given are going to come together in this question, but I'm going to put it out there anyway. There are times that the situation is dysfunctional — like you walk into, often you're hired and you walk into a dysfunctional booster situation. What do you do? Do you have any suggestions in terms of like first steps to reset the culture and to rebuild the trust, the things that we're talking about? How do you realign when you're walking into a struggle?
Yeah, I think it absolutely does go back to recapturing some of the things we're talking about. And then the age gap that John was talking about a while ago — it's even compounded even more in those moments when there's dysfunction, when there's an age gap in that. But to me, I think all those moments happen out of trust. You know, another thing I ask parents in meetings when I'm trying to have this discussion — I readily acknowledge I'm a control freak and your director probably is too. But let me ask you this question. Raise your hand if you have allowed your neighbor on the cul-de-sac to give feedback to how you do your daily job before you have your performance review. I don't see any hands. OK, how many of you allow your neighbors to decide where your thermostat should be set and to impact your utility bills on a monthly basis? I don't see any hands. OK, but you realize your control freak band director, which I'm self-professing that I'm one too, they might feel a little threatened when you're trying to tell them how to do their job when it's how they feed their family. And the fact that you might be the most important national best-selling Morton's salt salesperson in the country doesn't really give you an empowerment to impact someone else's livelihood. I think it goes back to the whole purpose statement and all of that. But it's all related, right? It's all about, I've spent all this time I should have a voice. Whether they're being an armchair quarterback or whatever, they feel like they have some reason to have value in it. But it all goes back to either that self-esteem moment or it goes back to the trust relationship. And so just like we would recommend our teachers in those dysfunctional moments when they go into any classroom, make lots of observations, but don't change very much at first because you have to develop trust in those moments. And then to me, it goes right back to that formula. I have to do a quick assessment. I have to decide two things. Who are my key leaders that I know are on board and they're going to support my mission? And then secondly, who are the influencers? Whoever I decide, I may talk to those parents that are my liaisons that I feel trust with or I feel at least they're on my team. While I'm new to this, I can tell the booster club president and this person is an officer, but the treasurer's a little — I don't know — there's a little bit, I know this person's on board. I'm going to talk with those two people. I'm going to find out who the influencers are because a negative influencer is still an influencer, right? So that's what change agents and change theorists talk about. What we're ultimately talking about is how do we change culture? The change theorists say you have to get 60% of your influencers on board with the new mission for change to be successful. So if we think about that and we know it's about trust and relationships almost all the time, then we have to decide who's on our team in that dysfunction. We have to assess why do we think it's dysfunctional? Most of the time it's out of lack of clarity. Most of the time dysfunction comes from not having defined roles and responsibilities. Our section leaders wouldn't be very successful if we don't tell them what to do. Our drum majors won't know they're supposed to do anything other than beat time if we don't give them anything else to do, right. Dysfunction is often related to that. But when we get down to it, then we have to make sure that we are communicating our why, we're empowering people for success, and we're investing in those influencers if we're wanting to evoke change. Because just like in our classrooms, if we get our student leadership on board and we motivate them, they're going to influence the other percentage, right? So to me it's you have to be patient, you have to be a listener, and then you have to decide who those influencers are and then use that switch formula and start investing time and building trust relationships with those influencers who aren't yet on board.
So then can I ask a follow up to this really quick, David, even though it's not on our plan, but I do think it's important — say that we do all of these things and it's just not working and it's just toxic, it's terrible. How do you shut it down?
Yeah. So one of the things that hasn't happened yet that will need to happen — two things — especially for those of you that are listeners out there that have 501(c)(3) things, let's hope you're not there yet where you're in the toxic moment. So this is for all of you that are blessed to not be in that moment, but you never know. Tides can turn quickly. So in your bylaws, there needs to be an officer recall policy so that if something happens, you have a way to get rid of that challenge and that problem. And then somewhere in the policy, it needs to stipulate that your partner in education and this organization may be dissolved by the principal at any point in time at will — the principal's will or administrative will. So to me, all booster clubs by definition of school district policies are basically that way, right? Because you can say I'm a 501(c)(3), you can't tell me what to do. And the principal can say you're exactly correct. But I can tell you can't do it in my building. So ultimately it's about being transparent. When it gets down to I've tried all these things and there's still a conflict, there's still challenges, then I think we have to make sure we've defined things, that we are being transparent. We're having one-on-one discussions just like we would with kids. We don't need to have those difficult discussions in public. We need to have them one-on-one. I would say especially if there's that age gap and you as a director are on the younger side, have another colleague with you so that you always have someone that can testify to what you did say or did not say in those moments. But making sure they're in small group and being honest and transparent, not in an ugly way, but identifying the dysfunction and how do we come together for the sake of our kids to get over this impasse? But then if it doesn't happen and it's like everything else, I'm going to tell you, here's our challenges. We're going to write them down. We're going to strategize some goals. And if it doesn't happen within the time frame, then we're going to dissolve the organization and restructure if we need to. Or we may just wait. And it's complicated because sometimes booster organizations pay for staff members or marching band assistants or pick your thing, and that gets very complicated. Even private lesson teachers are sometimes funded out of these programs.
That's correct. You know, it's complicated.
It is complicated. And I think it's also further complicated because in some districts, I would often recommend that the music teacher be like a signing agent at the bank — a signing agent but don't ever sign. But you need to be a signing agent to have access to those funds, right? And then the district has reason to enforce that because these are dollars that you as an organization have told the community you are going to spend on behalf of this organization, which is a school entity. But the second part of that is what makes it harder — some districts, because they want to protect the liability of the school district, say school employees can't be signers on bank accounts. But I think that's an important thing to go back to in these moments. Then maybe there needs to be bylaws that talk about — and I forgot to say this a while ago — but when you talk about how the organization is dissolved, it needs to specify that all the monies earned on behalf of or for the purpose of the organization and the education of children associated with this organization, all funds upon dissolution of the organization become possession of the school. So if that becomes a bylaw, then they're obligated — if it gets dissolved, then they're obligated by law and you can win that fight if things get tested. And then the other part needs to be that you have an arbitration — so if there becomes a moment, how do we as a booster club function with that? So there needs to be arbitration and mediation. By the time if you build those things into bylaws, that helps protect against those things, John, that you were talking about, and being proactive should those moments happen.
But it is sticky because you're right, they don't — but let's hope they don't — but it does happen every year somewhere unfortunately.
Well, this is good information to think through as directors move around from time to time and when you're taking on a new position, how many directors asked to see the bylaws of the organization? I would say most don't. Right after the fact perhaps, but something to know about certainly.
That's such great information. This has been a fantastic conversation.
On that topic, David, your point is well taken. Most don't. And here's the thing — government compliance — I can tell you that 90 plus percent of the organizations that I work with haven't updated their bylaws in two to three years. And so here's the thing, all the government requires is that you state how you're going to do business. If you say you're going to re up your officers and do your nomination process in March, OK, Well, 9 out of 10 organizations used to say that, but now they're doing it in April or now they're doing it in May and they're not in compliance. But it doesn't matter. All you have to do is revise the bylaws and say when you're going to do it now, right? It's not. It's only bad if you get audited, you know, But the reality is the directors, to your point, they should make that a priority when they go into a new, new gig. And the purpose is not to go aha, or I want to control, right? No, you just say we want to make sure that we're being compliant. And it's my understanding that by practice, most schools evolve or most programs evolve and how they do business. And we just need to, because I'm taking over now and it's my name associated with it. I just want us to do a peer review within our own parent organization to do a peer review and ask the question, are we compliant with current federal guidelines to make sure that we wouldn't lose our 5O1C3 should we be audited And that we're doing we're we're practically doing business as we said we would. And if we're not, we just need to update it, make it a very low key thing. But you have the right to say that because your name is now on the organization and you want to make sure that I would also do an audit, financial audit on a very low key level, a transparent, you know, just whatever so that you have. And I would do that with an inventory of your school resources. All that because if a tube is missing, you don't want someone to come to you next year and say you lost a tuba if it was gone before you got there. So anyway, that was a side note.
No, this is Dave. This has been such a, a wonderful conversation. We're going to shift into kind of our closing. But I, I just want to tell you how impactful I think this is because there's so many aspects of this that I don't think we are commonly talking about, commonly thinking about, but it's such an important part of the success of our students. Like if this organization isn't running on all cylinders, are we thus empowering at the level we could be or we're not. And that all falls on us as the director. At the end of the day, the buck stops with us. So this has been a really valuable, really, I really appreciate the conversation. Indeed. So now David, I'm going to ask the first of three questions that we ask all of our guests. And so the first one, do you have a soapbox topic either about booster clubs or parent groups or even band directing or anything that is a soapbox topic for you?
Yeah, we've, we've kind of covered it. It's about people. We are here. We all want our kids to be artful. We want them to love music. So they are advocates of music for the rest of their lives. But we really are in the people business. And if we want to genuinely reach our goal of making performers have the most I'm enriching experiences making music and loving art. I believe through my own experiences that the stronger connection and trust relationships I have with my students, those experiences get elevated and when I have connection with them. And the other part I would say is my soapboxes. Related to that, as we are building trust relationships, I used to say I wanted my kids to feel like they were having a safe space, but now I wanted I really believe what I meant all along was I wanted to create a brave space. And so I think there's a distinct difference there. A kid can feel safe in the room and not feel seen and can be complying. You know, Brené Brown talks about the difference between belonging and versus fitting in and 11 needs to feel true sense of belonging. They need to be fully accepted for who they are and, and seen for who they are not conforming to feel safe. And so from a, from a standpoint of I feel very blessed and thankful that I feel like the pinnacle experiences, whether it was performing at Grand Nationals, whether it was a state conference or at Midwest, those different performances, the peak experiences happened when I wanted them to on stage in that moment. And it's because I believe that I invested in the people side of it and that I wanted them to be brave. And so they were willing to make brave moments when it counted. They were willing to be brave artfully. And if I didn't create a brave space in my classroom where it's OK if they made mistakes, or like my high school band program was, as I mentioned early on, it was great trained, but I was afraid to come to rehearsal to make a mistake. And so to me, it's about what are we doing to build relationships with our with our kids and am I creating a brave space? And there's a lot of we could have a whole nother podcast session on a brave space, right? But to me, that's my soapbox topic at the moment, because to me, if we achieve that, the art becomes incredible. And that's been my experience is that the music making was further enhanced and was further than I could have ever imagined when we had that kind of connection in the room.
I'm right with you. I'm right there with you on that. You mentioned earlier a couple of different books that you've, you know, that came out there in conversation, but I'm curious, we asked this, if everyone, is there a particular book or books that really inspired you kind of in your journey, not necessarily as within the context of this topic, but you know, anything that you just really share with our listeners?
Yeah, I think I used to spend summers kind of like in the self help sections of Barnes and Noble. That was like a bookstore for those. You don't remember those?
Yeah. It still exists. Yes, we have a couple in Atlanta. But yeah.
And so to me, the booster club topic, I discovered we really are an event, event planning business. And then I looked at Jim Collins. Good to great, Yep. And how we can focus on that as it relates to booster clubs, he talks about getting the right people on the bus, the wrong people off the bus and get everybody in the right seats before the bus leaves. For me as a teacher, I was really intrigued by a couple of things. Ed Lisk's whole creative director and how to focus on small amounts of content and how do we use them to, to avoid autopilot, but creating the, the, the auto context of what's happening and keeping them engaged in every moment of rehearsal instead of just doing the scale again. I think that was very empowering. And then, you know, I really 2 greatest influences that I had. It's not really a book as much, but I would encourage folks to read you guys book. While I've not read all of it, I was influenced by Mike Hathcock and Eddie Green. And so from my time in Houston and in early my research, I invested a lot of time looking at John's work and dissertation and the whole directed listening and all of that. And so to me, the more things we focus on that type of thing and we challenge ourselves to get the mechanics of being great pedagogues is really important in that context.
We do agree that's right. And by the way. Thank you for mentioning my dissertation. Outside of my mother and my committee, I don't think anyone's read it.
Hey David, why don't you take a moment to also plug your books on this topic and we'd love to get those out there as well.
Yeah, there's two out there. They both to me the important somewhere the documents that come with them and whatnot because so you don't have to start over from scratch, but it's boosters to the rescue and strategic plans for successful booster club both by. Those Gia. Resources And then when we're talking about all the culture stuff, Tim Watson and Heiser and I just collaborated with our Servant leadership Association of music board of contributors through Crafting culture. It's was released last year through GI as well. GI. As well, Right. Good. Yeah, saw that. And then, you know, the whole Michigan side of things. I've I'm a big advocate of Steve Myers rehearsing the band, rehearsing high school band, middle school band, jazz band, marching band, all that good stuff.
Oh, Stephen Meyer. He was an associate of mine years ago when he first got out of school. So he is, he is very, very special. He's brilliant, so I advocate for his books too. So, all right, so you got the last one. The final question, and arguably the most important what is your favorite time signature?
My favorite time signature. I would have to say this is a little bizarre, but I'm going to go with 7-8.
You're in very good company. Many people have said that. Yeah, our. First, our first podcast guest was Jerry Junkin, and that was his OK. He was a 7-8 guy and we've had numerous impressive people select 7-8, so you're in really good company.
That's great, and you've had a great list of.
Well, we've been fortunate that there are just some really, really like yourself, really wonderful people in this profession that are willing to, to give of their time to, to help others, because that's that's why we put this together was like, Hey, how can we get information out to help teachers do what they do best? So in any case, thank you so much again for being here. This has been enlight, enlightening for me and beneficial in a ways that I can't even imagine. So thank you, thank you, thank you.
My pleasure.
That's it for today's episode of the Common Time Podcast and. Thank you for spending time with us. We hope that today's conversation will give you something useful to take back to your students and your program and. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you subscribed so you don't miss what's coming up. And if you know another director who might benefit from this, please share it with them. Also, don't forget you're able to nominate a music educator for our Standing Ovation program. The link to submit is in the show notes below. Thanks. Again, for joining us on the Common Time podcast, as always, keep making music and keep making a difference.