Hi everybody, and welcome back to Season 3 of the Common Time podcast. We're so glad to have you here to continue bringing our conversations, insights, and inspiration for music educators everywhere. Each week, we'll highlight voices from across the music world and share ideas that you can bring directly into your classroom and to your ensembles.
Today we're going to do something just a bit different. We've been hearing from you about some of you want to, I want to get to know David and I just a bit better. So for these upcoming episodes, he and I, we're just going to interview each other just a bit so that so that like we can share our stories with you and just, and hopefully can inspire some people in some way, or even if not, just to give you a bit of a glimpse of who we are. So today our guest is Doctor David Clemmer. Hello, David. Welcome.
Thanks, John. Thanks so much for having me on. I'm I'm looking forward to this where this conversation takes us since we've not discussed what questions you're going to ask me. So here we go. Really excited about it.
Our guest today is a professor, a conductor and author, a lecturer, a clinician on multiple continents, and not only my best friend in the world about a role model that I look up to and someone that I'm honored to be in his presence whenever we're together. So David, I'm just going to dive right in too kind. Why don't you tell us a bit about yourself? How did you get here?
How did I get here specifically as this podcast? Or just kind of where you are in your career and.
You know, it's — yeah, kind of where you are.
You know, it's very interesting. I was thinking this morning, I took the dogs on a walk and as we were coming like toward mile 2 and like it's time to go home. I was just for kind of thinking about, it's funny that you say kind of where we am. I was just outside enjoying the day. It's in Houston and this time of year it's, it's nice. It was just nice. And I and I get on these walks. I can't sort of just lost in my own thoughts. And I was thinking about, I have a current project that I'm working on called Maestro mine Blueprint. And I, I mentioned that because my thought process was like, how did I get to this point where this concept, this idea of maestro mind came from? And I literally kind of went through a little bit of nostalgia as I was thinking about my like starting on Cornet as a fifth grader. And I had moved from the Midland Odessa area. We lived in a little small town called Andrews, which is just north of Odessa. It's like 11,000 people and my dad's a police officer. He was, he's retired now, but he wanted the big city experience. So we moved to Arlington and in January of my fifth grade year, I entered school and they had a band and I, they said, well, what instrument you want to play? And I didn't know, I had no real thoughts about instruments. But I did love music and I wanted to be in band. So I earlier today I was thinking about how did, why did I love music at that time? And honestly, it started in church. So like when I was a little kid, we, we went to church, you know, twice on Sunday, Wednesday youth group on Tuesday, all the things. And I, like a lot of kids would fall asleep like during church. And I, I really paid attention. I loved the music part and I, I love singing the songs. We had an back then, it was like a organist and a pianist and our organist, like that woman, like she could get all over the keys. And I was just mesmerized watching her and then, you know, singing these songs and stuff. So fast forward to 5th grade, I decide, well, there's instrumental music, I want to do this. But I didn't know anything. I didn't know what instruments were like. I didn't know what my choices were. I had a friend in Andrews that his older brother had played cornet. I just seen it out. He'd been practicing. So I just told him I want to play cornet. That's all I got. And so I play cornet and I, I was fortunate I that band was, is a private school and it was a the band director, his name is Duncan Brown. Duncan, Hello. If you're out there. And he ended up moving in the following year, and I ended up transferring to another school that didn't have a band. So in that transition, I was fortunate that Duncan's teacher decided that he would take me on so that I could continue studying because I'd been studying privately with Duncan, and his teacher happened to be John Haney at the University of North Texas. At the time, I knew nothing. Listen, it was like my grandfather. I would go to his house on Saturday mornings and I'd have an hour lesson and he literally would have come home that morning from either golfing or bird hunting. And I would know if he was bird hunting, he would unzip like this one full thing like those other what you call those things, step out of it, pick up his trumpet, and then we would have a lesson. And I did that from well, I studied with him all through high school, but from 6th grade through 10th grade, he was my only musical influence outside of church. So I had church music and John Haney. And with Mr. Haney it was, it's such an interesting thing. It's, it's a long story, should probably wrap it up. But I was thinking about how did I get to this maestro mind idea? And John Haney was 50% of our lesson was skill building. It was all about skills. He broke it down into four areas, air amateur, tonguing and fingering. And we were doing something to address all four of those for 50% of the lesson. And then once we hit 30 minutes on the clock, then we did music. And the last half was just repertoire literature. And it started off with, you know, solo literature and those kinds of things. And by the 8th grade, I was, I played, I remember working on the Haydn Trumpet Concerto, which is a somewhat advanced piece for an eighth grader, but I didn't know any different. No one told me that I could or couldn't play that music. And it what I find interesting. And looking back, I remember he kept white out on the stand like use that anymore. I don't even know that exists anymore. But he would white out articulation markings and he would add a slur. He would change dynamics. But he was constantly making what I was seeing more musical than what was on the page. And I was just absorbing all this really these instincts from him, which is kind of been a guiding light my entire life. All of these things that started sitting in a little chair in his front room, learning the skills of music and the art of music really kind of at the same time. So fast forward, I went to high school, I decided I really wanted to do a marching band. I hadn't done that before. And so I ended up in Martin High School. And I, I did love band. I'd love jazz ensemble. I enjoyed that, But I wasn't really thinking about being a musician full time or a teacher. I wanted to be a pilot and I was getting letters from congressman because I wanted to go to the Naval Academy and do those kinds of things. And something flipped. We did this teacher the senior teach day and I and I taught band. I signed up like I'll teach band that day and it I like flipped on. And at that point I was like, now this is what I'm supposed to do. So I went to college, got some degrees and top music up until 5 or 6 years ago. And I stepped away from the podium, entered the private sector. And I've been, I've done several things in the private sector, but I've tried to stay very connected to the music world. And most of that has been through collaborations. And then things that I've written, things that I'm working on in terms of project, which kind of gets me back to that Maestro mind thing, but we can talk about that later.
Let's go to another question because that was a long story you know, sorry, you know, this is great. It is so fascinating to hear how people get to where they are both in their professional lives and, and private lives. But, you know, as I'm I'm thinking about our listeners and the experiences that they're having. Let's let's dive into your first year to teach or your first job. How was that for you and, and like what kind of lessons did you learn the hard way or you know, what did you have to figure out on your own? Or what if, if like David now could tell David back then some advice, what would you tell yourself or something like that?
This is a great question, John. And it's honestly, I'm going to come back to that Maestro mind again thing because Maestro mind, that blueprint that I'm currently working on, we piloted it last month. Is all of the things really that I wish I had known in terms of the classroom and working with students and how that's supposed to work aside from teaching music. Because going into teaching, I was pretty skilled at teaching before I went into the classroom. I've been teaching privately since my second year of college and I, I taught privately. I had 65 to 70 students when I was teaching in Duncanville ISD. And so the idea of teaching students and scaffolding information and working through that, I felt comfortable with. What I had no idea was how do I deal with people? And it sounds weird because we, we, we deal with people all the time, but how do you, how do you build relationships where students will take risks? How do you build a community and a culture within an ensemble? And that's not something we had discussed in college. I didn't. It's not a class on that. So going into my first year of teach, I felt confident from a musician's standpoint. Like I felt like I think I could do this, but I did not do very well at. I mean, it was good at classroom management, but my style was, I say good. My classroom management style was very disciplined. And I use that very emphasis there on purpose. And I look back and there's a lot of things I wish I'd done differently in terms of allowing students to fail, creating a space that was safe for them to fail so they could grow. We could grow together and we could create more of a collaborative type experience versus I'm going to tell you what to do, you're going to do it. And then we're going to reach whatever level of excellence that we're we're trying to all aspire to. But the difference was I was the one creating all of that. I was deciding what was excellent. I was deciding how we're going to get there and all of the in between items. And now, you know, two or three decades later, I wish I had seen that differently in my first few years to teach because I just didn't know. And I think we teach often times how we're taught. In my band experiences had been more rigid like that. There wasn't really, not that they were negative. They weren't. It was just a different time. And I, I didn't, I went into it believing like, OK, we need to get, you know, a one at UIL. And to do that, the band has to sound this way. And to do that, I have to do these certain things and get these kids to jump through these hoops. But they were never part of the process other than just playing the notes. And I look back and I wish I had known, but I didn't know. So, you know, you figure it out. And I have a good friend, Todd Dixon and I, I watched Todd late in his teaching career and, and standing in a room with him and seeing how he had built a culture of where students were collaborating with him. They were collaborating with each other. He was directing kind of guiding their listening, but also how they responded in a in a safe space. And it all kind of came full circle to me when I started writing this blueprint, this the mastermind blueprint. Because as we, as we go into the teaching field, we've spent a ton of time studying our principal instrument. We've studied conducting, we've studied theory history, all of the things that prepare us to look at a score and to and to interpret music and to teach music. But that other side, we, I think the greatest teachers figure that out over time. And then I think Todd would tell you, like at the beginning of his career, he was very similar to where I was, but then later on, over time developed, you know, what he felt was best for kids. And that had a whole lot to do with the room that they were in and the calm experience where they were safe to talk to each other, to provide feedback to the conductor and the conductor to provide feedback. And so it was a two way street. And yeah. So just going back to your kind of your question, I wish that I had known that. So, and to our listeners, if you're a, if you're a new teacher, I would encourage you to find a mentor teacher that their space is, there's a space that's allows for joy, that allows for inspiration, but there it also allows for failure. And those failures aren't turned into like gotcha moments. They are moments for growth. But because it's a joyous atmosphere, because it's a culture of trust, then those students can fail, get back up and move forward. And the, the transfer of information between student, conductor, conductor, student, student, student is it's proactive and rather than reactive. So I would, I would encourage you to, if you're out there and you're wondering like, well, how would I do that? Because I didn't learn that in college either. Someone out there is doing it right now and doing it really well. Go find them. Go find them and watch their rehearsals as much as you can.
On social media lately, I've been reading some comments from teachers that are just feeling overwhelmed and burnt out and almost like a self doubt. Am I good at this? I even said that to my colleague Richard Fry the other day. I'm like, I thought I was supposed to be good at this, you know? Do you have any experience with that? And do you have any advice to our listeners that could be feeling those same kinds of things?
Well, imposter syndrome is real and I think we, I can't say that everyone deals with it, but I think most of us probably do. Even the most successful among us and the peers and colleagues that have, if you look at the trophies and accolades like, wow, this person must be, you know, firing on all cylinders, etcetera. I even those folks and when they're by themselves, you know, there's that little voice in your head that says how are we going to accomplish that or how am I going to do this? And so first I think it's just embracing that. That's a real feeling that we all have and we all go through. I've gone through that many times. I look back on my career now and I'm like, how did I do that one thing? I don't know how I pulled that off I, I don't when I was at the University of Kansas, I was the director of athletic bands and I didn't have an assistant. It was just me. I did have 4 graduate assistants that helped with the process, but between like the decision making process and moving the band across the country for bowl games and those kinds of things, I really don't know how I pulled that off. There was a bowl game where we took two flights out from, I think it's going to the inside bowl, 2 flights out from Topeka and then two flights back. So 4 total flights splitting the band in. The people that were on all four of those flights were different for each flight. And somehow I managed that. The kids, I created this code system where you're assigned a code and then I could organize the codes and just make certain because I'm, I'm transporting, you know, 200 and 52175 kids and I'm interested with getting them across the country and back safely. And I look back, I don't, I can't tell you I did it. I don't know how. I mean, it went well. Band played well. We had a great bowl game, but I just don't know how. And I think sometimes we're, it's in the moment, like when you're doing all these things, we, it, it can seem overwhelming, like it can just feel like there's just so much weight. But somehow we, we manage it. So every day that we felt we couldn't do something and then we do it. To me, that's a reminder. Like you remember that day that I didn't feel the confidence to do that one thing. Well, I did that one thing and that gives me confidence today to tackle the thing that's in front of me now. So I don't know if that would be helpful for every viewer, but I, I face things every day that I, I, that are obstacles and I know that they're obstacles. And I have to mentally remind myself, you've faced an obstacle like this before and you're still here. So it's the, it, it's OK, let's get, let's, let's get to work on this. Let's figure out what it's going to take to move past or above or under or over, however you get past it, but to move beyond whatever that obstacle is. So I hope that helps a little.
So let's change topics very just a little bit, OK, about your teaching philosophy. What is your teaching philosophy?
I would say my teaching philosophy is a, it's a combination of things actually. It's sort of an intersection of, I kind of mentioned it a second ago, kind of the art and the craft of teaching. So it's kind of like a Venn diagram, I guess. And I love the Venn diagrams obviously with them directed to listening model and so forth. But for me that my teaching philosophy is where those two things interact, intersect, and the idea that I'm teaching, I'm teaching a skill, a very identifiable skill. There's like a subject matter here that I have to be the expert in. But then there's this other part that is it's the inspiration behind it. It's really more of the why, but you kind of have the what and the how, which is great. But there's a why factor and the why thing is really important for me. And that's and it's hard to describe in words, honestly, what that is, but it's the why thing that keeps me moving forward. And I think when you, if I bowl this down, it's now and I wouldn't have said this 2530 years ago because I didn't know, but now I would say at this at the center of teaching of everything educational, it's what's the student I want to develop? What kind of person do I want to develop at the end of their time with me, whether that's it with an honor band or teaching a course or leading toward a concert, whatever it is, what's the type of individual, the person that I would like to see developed during that time? If I was a high school teacher right now, I'd be like, from the time they start my program till they graduate, who am I developing? So it's not just a musical question anymore. It used to be a lot more musical, but now the music is just the it's just an Ave. toward building that person, if, if you will, because they're developing more than. Just musicians we're developing, kids, students and hopefully. Teaching the future of global citizenry, Yeah. We really are. It's a huge responsibility. And I didn't, I didn't enter teaching with that mindset. I really didn't. It took quite a time for me to come back to like, what is the real why? Like what is it that we're really trying to do? Because I love music and I was driven by music. I wanted to play music, I wanted to perform music. But at the end of the day, that's was just the, the conduit for sharing all these other things. So when I mentioned, you know, building trust, building leadership and not student leaders, but the other people, there are individuals that sign up and want to be a student leader. I want to develop leadership that's internal with every student, like that kind of thing. So it's in terms of my teaching philosophy, I really, it really revolves around the idea of developing students fully and unpacking that because every student's different, every class is different. But I'm packing that such a way that I use music to connect the dots. But at the end of the day, I want the my graduate to have experienced something within my program or with their time with me that inspires them. That's going to, they're going to look back and feel like I'm, I'm a stronger individual, I'm a more joyous individual, I'm a more empathetic individual, like all those kinds of things. So I can keep going on that. But that's that's at the heart of where my teaching philosophy lies.
You know, we've been teaching together for a very long time. Very long time a. Quarter of a century, as a matter of fact, which is crazy because we started teaching when we were 4. But that's true. But we, I mean, we teach together in Europe, our, our project in Africa, you know, drum corps, high school, public schools, college, university teaching with all of the touch points that we've had in the field of education and, and band world. What are you inspired about or feel really good about in terms of where the professions going in the future?
It's a deep question, John. Look at me, not just pretty face.
Just a pretty face for our listeners out there. John has a very pretty face, man.
This is a good question because I could go a lot of different ways with it. I think. I think the profession's in a good place, but I there are things that concern me in the profession as well. We're going to get to those. I wanted to sandwich it with a positive difference. Yeah, yeah. You know, I right now we just, I don't know when this is going to air, but this week we had Texas UIL state marching contest and there was an incident where one of the competing bands, semi truck was hit by a train. No one was injured, but it was a quite a tragedy for the program. And this is on a, you know, a day that they're performing. I mean, kind of imagine the mental just weight of that on the directors as well, not just the students, the directors like the entire program, the parents like that's a lot of weight. And one of the most amazing things to was to see how other music educators, directors, parents, truck drivers all rallied behind that program. So, and I think that's, that's not a one off, I don't believe that's a singular event. I think that music education is a pretty tight knit group of people. And part of that is because they are all headed in that same direction for the most part. I think there's some we do get a little bit, I guess off path sometimes. But I think the idea of how music education is moving forward right now is great. It's, it's really providing opportunities for students that are, that is well, opportunities that you just can't get anywhere else. Like being in music education is, to me, it's just incredibly special. So for that, I think it's, I think things are going really, really well. And I'm I love seeing how supportive this group of people are with each other so.
Then on the other side to that, do you have any concerns?
You know, I do because I think I do believe that every like music education is important. I want every student possible to have some experience with music. And I believe, you know, we, we have a responsibility to do that and to share that with, with the world. And I'm trying to find a way to say this. It's because I don't want it to sound offensive because I don't think it's intentional. I don't think this is something that's happening intentionally necessarily. But we are pricing some students out of playing music. And so the accessibility of music for everyone is limited. And that's, that's really concerning. I find it to be, it's something I think we should be thinking about. I think the profession should be talking about it. You know, how do we make music accessible to everybody, every zip code? Like how does that, how is that going to work? And I think we are all kind of aware of it. I think people think about it in the back of the heads, but we're not necessarily creating solutions. And they're like trying to dig in and find solutions so that rural music programs are supported. And again, this kind of goes back to the financing of everything costs something, but we all do choose how we spend our money. We, we choose what we're going to prioritize. And so, you know, kind of talk about the, the tail wagging the dog. I'm very curious within our music programs how those choices are going to play out over the next two, 3-4 decades. Because we do have music educators that are going to go or Future Music educators, I should say, that are going through these programs now and then they're going to graduate, go to music school and then this. It's kind of cyclic or cyclic, I should say. So kind of circular in motion. So I'm just real. I'm curious about the next few decades and how we as current music educators are going to address, or maybe they don't address. Maybe it just moves forward the way it is and however the chips fall, the chips fall. But I hope that's not the case. I really do hope we are able to look at music and arts in general because they're we're struggling with that across the board. It's not just music, but I think kids should have an have access to that and not every kid does.
OK, hard right turn. Good, because it's so serious. How do you program for concerts? Because I, I, I think this is, this is one of the hardest parts of our job. It's the most, I mean, I love it. I love learning about the culture and the music, but how do you do it? And do you have any advice for people that are going? I just help me.
It is. I love programming. It's one of my favorite things in the world. We did, you know, we did a programming project near my doctorate. Several of them actually, and they were some of the hardest projects for me to accomplish because I'd labored over everything. Is it too hard? Is it is it presenting the right opportunities for the students? Is it, is it, are they going to grow? All these different questions I'm asking myself, am I, am I, do I have an, am I representing the full community in my choices? You know, and there's just so many questions, so many check box you're trying to, trying to take off and that makes it really challenging. So I found that to be sometimes very frustrating. Like I spent, I spent a lot of time on it. Jerry Junkins said once I, I believe it was Jerry, that programming is so important because every piece that you choose to program is not choosing every other piece that's available. So when you make that choice to perform that piece of music, you have eliminated all other pieces that could have been played there. That's weighty to me. Like I heard him say that and I was like, oh, OK, I really need to be really thinking about what does my, what is my programming? What should it accomplish? So I think for everyone out there, we, and this is different for every person, but for me, I'm trying to accomplish a few things with the program. One of them for me is I want it to be enjoyable. I want the students to like it. I want the audience to like it and I want to like it. I think that's important. So that's that's a box for me. Is this something that's enjoyable? The second one, is it something that is it's going to provide an opportunity for growth or teaching Sometimes like I love Stravinsky some it's probably my favorite composer. I'm not sure kids are going to 1st off love Stravinsky at 1st and may not be able to perform Stravinsky at first. So am I going to program Stravinsky even though it's something I love? Nope. I have to put that one over here to the side, but I keep that on a list of like, is there a way that I can invite Stravinsky into our vocabulary down the down the road? So I look when I look at programming, I look at it over a full year, sometimes 2, sometimes 5. It just depends. So Stravinsky might fit into like, OK, this is not a year one piece, but if I'm building their vocabulary of what they're hearing, what they're experiencing, I might be able to work in the circus polka in year 2. And that's a, that's not an easy piece, but it's, it's easier than a lot of the other pieces for wins. So it's could I get to that? So for me, it's looking at how there's so many things here. I have a list of pieces that I, I think are really important that students experience, but I have to determine based on where they are in their maturity. That's both musical, musical maturity and just individual maturity. Is this something that I can program for them? And then I'm trying to build programs usually around that trajectory with those pieces. And I'll tell you, there's a lot of, it's like moving. It's like, I don't have this, but I should have like a little board and I'm sliding things around to where it all works. But like I'm working on an honor band program now. And this is an honor band program for a 6A wind ensemble region group in Texas. So my assumption going in is that it's, they're probably somewhat advanced players. So I want to give them something that they're going to really enjoy, but also be challenged by. And then the next game is like, I also hope for it to be something that perhaps they haven't already played, like something that's going to be new for them so that they can grow into. And I'm looking at there's a couple different pieces, but IA piece by Vietcong, which is going to be very different for them. It's it's very much more like John Adams in terms of how it's put together. It's minimalist and, you know, band programs don't play that style of music very often. I want them to have an experience with that. And it's tied to a piece of poetry, but it's, there's a story behind the piece, which is about kind of about life. And so I can build sort of a narrative around what that piece is. And I've, I'm pairing it with a piece by David Campo, two poems of Robert Frost and which is a great new piece that I think it's just been added to the, to the Texas PML. So it might be getting out to other state lists as well. It's a wonderful piece of music. It was premiered almost like two or three years ago. And it's obviously based on poems by Robert Frost. But again, this piece of music and what David's intent was really kind of choices we make in life. That's what the poetry is about. So it can kind of link those two together conceptually. I say all that to say, when I'm build my programs, I almost always have some link involved, something conceptual, even if the audience isn't sure it's, it's there. So I kind of build through that with this one. It's going to be, it is, it's poetry. It's the, it's what is going to tie everything together. And I'm going to have a couple of students just like a, you remember John, when we were in Germany, Kristoff's band would always have his kids would go to the mic and introduce the piece And they like, I loved this. I don't see this very often in the States, but for listeners that are out there, John and I, we've, we have a good friend in Germany. His name's Christophe Bright Talk and he's a friend and co-author of the directed listening model with us and his groups. He teaches at a, a little school in Ettenheim, Germany. And we, we spent quite a bit of time over there, but we've conducted his ensemble. I don't know, half a dozen. It's been a lot, but these little kids like it's, I love watching them because they're, they're so animated and they're these concerts, their parents. I mean, they pack these standing room only for these concerts. And the kids will between pieces, someone will go to the podium and they have prepared remarks that they'll go to the podium and say to the audience. And like there's they're helping the audience better understand what it is that they're doing. How was, how are the dots connected here? And I, I remember seeing that thing like, you know, I want to start doing that, like have the students because I think it's an opportunity for the students to learn a little bit about the music they're playing, but also for them to stand up and, and communicate because almost always it's the conductor that goes to the mic and talks. I don't, I'm really bet the parents would prefer to see the students do that. So I don't know.
That's true. Anyways, yeah. All right, so let's hard turn left now. All right, So I mean, you've, you've, you've had an unbelievably successful career and I champion you more. I mean, you know how much I love you. What do you do for fun?
Well, that's a good question, John. You've had really good questions.
See like. But you didn't prepare. I'm just, they're just winging this.
I, you know, Teresa and I love traveling. I think it's probably my, my favorite thing to do in the world is just to go somewhere. And for me, it's not even doesn't have to be far away. I mean, I love Europe. I love, I mean, I love traveling like to, you know, those places as well. But you know, we took a little trip to Fredericksburg not too long ago, which is 3 or 4 hours from here. We stopped over in, in Austin and we saw some friends in Austin. Shout out to Andy and Alexis. I love that. I love just being able to go and do things. And for me, literally leaving my house, I can just say I can travel somewhere for an hour and it's just me. Like this is weird, but open the sunroof and just sort of enjoy things. I had a convertible, I sold it a couple years ago, but I had a convertible for a while and I would just take it out and drive around and just enjoy weather and nature. And where I live, you can cut this back roads that are very like just trees. And in any case, I, I really do love travel and just getting out and being out. So I think that's probably, that's what I do for the for the most fun is that I'm sure there's some other things Teresa could probably tell you, some other things I don't know.
Yeah, I mean, we've been talking about this over the past couple seasons on this podcast. It's really important, I think, for teachers to have some downtime, to enjoy their personal life, enjoy their family and because the job can be all consuming, right?
Absolutely. And I'll tell you, when I moved into the private sector, I did this better than when I was a teacher. I was. Teresa just said something. Hold on. I like to stop TV shows and movies in the middle of a scene to play a piece of music I was reminded of and then tell her about it, she says that's fun.
I think that's quite fun. That's hilarious. Where are we talking about? I just totally lost one. Oh no, no, just downtime. Importance of stepping away from the job.
She said that's not fun for her, but it's fun for fun for me. I think. So if you're listening out there, Teresa is my wife and she's also on the producer. So she's sending us messages at this time downtime. I didn't do this as well when I was teaching. I, I've done it a lot better in the private sector. And I think, I think sometimes the private sector, there are areas of it that are good and bad. Like it's a, in the private sector, it is a, it's driven by making money. I mean, that's really pretty much what it is. But there's also built, often times built in things that take you out of the office in real estate, which I've enjoyed to mince the real estate investment. Those kinds of things I really enjoy. But one of the things that is a component of real estate that's pretty popular is the idea of organized masterminds. Like when you get together with just other people that are in the industry and you sit around, you talk about these topics and you, you flesh out what you're thinking, how you, how do you grow? What is the problem I'm working on? How can I help? So it's, but it's all very collaborative. It's actually where the idea for Maestromind came from, like mastermind Maestromind. It was an easy transition because I, I remember thinking like, we don't really do this in music. We don't have this, these little cohorts that get together and just talk about stuff and work through stuff and take like get out of the office to do that, like go somewhere else and, and, and talk shop. But in a way that's constructive, you know, ways like how can you help each other in this process? And so it's, it's interesting. I think it's, it's important that, you know, we, we stay so focused as teachers because there's always something to do. There's always something that we have to fix or some issue that we're dealing with. It's constant. I think we have to remind each other and sometimes it's, we have to be intentional with putting our time somewhere else like these 30, these 45 minutes. I will be doing this thing which has nothing to do with any of those problems, those issues, whatever it is. So it's, I can tell you when I moved out of teaching into the private sector, time and my intentionality with time became much more focused. And when I feel most productive now, it's because I've been very intentional with my time. And when I feel least productive, it's because my time has been like I'm playing whack A mole. It being very reactive to things very versus being proactive. There's a book actually called Upstream by, Oh my gosh, Upstream. Where do I have it around here? It's around here on my desk somewhere, but it's by Dan Heath. And it talks about in general, this is, I think this applies great to music, but it, it, this isn't the business world of two kinds of thinking, upstream thinking and downstream thinking. Deep downstream thinking is dealing with problems as they occur. Upstream is creating systems that eliminate the problems from ever occurring. That's, that's a, a short narrative of what the book is. It's more in depth, but I think in the teaching world, a lot of times, because we do, there is so many things that can be overwhelming and just really bog us down. Now we're playing whack A mole trying to, you know, fix all the problems. Sometimes we have to step back and go, this is where the masterminds come in. If it really helped me, like, oh, I'm experiencing that same thing. Look what they did. They have these systems that have eliminated that issue well before it started. I need to implement that into my thinking immediately. So there's kind of two parts of dealing with the weight of teaching and so forth. I think part of it is, yeah, we do have to step away sometimes and just have downtime. Find 30 minutes that you're going to go read a book that's not about music or you're going to whatever it is, whatever makes you happy, whatever gives you joy, go do that thing. But the other part is of creating intentionality with our time and then systems that are going to eliminate as much as possible of the whack A mole kind of approach. And you know, when we're young teachers, I don't think I, I didn't think this way. I didn't, I hadn't read that book. I hadn't thought about any of that stuff, which the shift of the private sector in a way has been very unique because a lot of my reading has been books like that. And then it's which really we kind of talking about journey early at the beginning, it really has brought me back full circle to engaging with education and educators in a different way because of the knowledge I've gained in the last five or six years. That applies so directly to the classroom, but it's not something that is necessarily taught at the university level. It's something that we through osmosis, I guess, just pick it up over time or we see someone do something. But now looking at it and going like, no, we have to be intentional. We have to create systems. We have to like there's all these things that in the business world, that's just that's just what we're doing. But it applies to, it applies to teaching with one caveat that the like what your, your North Star is, is the student that you're graduating. What, what are we developing with that student? So that's the North Star. But these other things are the things that get us there. That's sort of the compass and the roadways that take us there, if that makes sense.
I would argue too. I mean, and I know you obviously really well, and I was the same way too, even when I was first starting with intentionality of time, even if I read the book, I would have completely disregarded it because I thought that I had to be on 24/7. And if I'm not thinking about the students in terms of their experience and how to get better than it's going to let them down and like the whole thing, right? But I do think it's so important for anybody listening to really think about this. You're going to have to charge your own battery. You know, you absolutely, you can't help a student if the cup isn't at least half full, right? So as the metaphor.
No, you're absolutely right. And I, I think sometimes when you talk about intentionality of time, you, it's important if you're not, if you're listening and you're not scheduling your own breaks, your own recharge time, your own. And these don't have to be like long amounts of time, but you need time there. I can tell you that if you're having a crap day and you take a 10 minute walk and it's beautiful outside, your day gets better. And I found that oftentimes we, we'll do those things when it, when it's like the last option, rather than just programming it into my day. Here's what I'm going to do every day. You know, we had Clark Hibbs on who's a, he owns a gym 2 gyms here in the Houston area. And we had great conversation with Clark about health and well-being and those kinds of things. And part of it was scheduling. Like you have to schedule these things if you want to do them. And I think we, we often times wait until like, we're in so much stress that we just like, have to like, we at this point, the everything is so heavy. If I don't get out of here, I'm going to have a nervous breakdown. Some people leave the profession because there hasn't been intentionality with how they give time back to themselves. And yeah, I hate seeing teachers leave the profession. I hate it. But I, I can see that the profession is difficult. This kind of goes back to the previous conversation. Like, what's it going to look like over the next decade 2-3? Are music teachers going to continue to pile more and more on their plates? Or are they going to say like, because what they did, we started with this, this is the health of America. By the way, we started with plates that were 9 inches and now our plates are like 11 inches. Like we eat more food in America. It's the same thing with our time. We started off like, well, here's what we do. Well, now we've added this and now we're the bigger plate and then a bigger plate. And eventually, like you have so many things on the plate, like you're going to have to get a new plate or you take something off the plate. So I'd encourage you, if you're listening out there, if you have, if you're bringing something on, what are you removing to make space for that? Because this happens a lot. We're like, oh, we're going to do this, we're going to do that, or we have this project or we're going to take the band to do this, right? That's great. Those are great. What are you removing from that equation? Your plate's only so big. What are you removing from that equation so that you can make room for that new thing? I would be really, especially now, cognizant of how I add things to my plate.
Indeed. OK, so here's the time of the podcast that we our listeners, 3 questions and all right, and I'll, I'll take all three of them. Good. So it's the first of which do you have a soapbox topic?
Well, I think we probably talked about most of them honestly, but I'm going to hammer away a little bit on the, on the, the financial aspects because there's, there's a lot of people that, that are listening that you do you. We all control, no, you control your own destiny. And if you're running a program, you get to determine what experiences finances provide for your students. And I'm curious I'm not seeing this happen, but I'm wondering what it would be like if instead of competing every year and spending 1/4 of $1,000,000 plus for a marching band show maybe every other year, every 3rd year, you commissioned an incredible composer to write new music. Excuse me for your ensemble. I mean, there are composers out there that well. I remember when John Coriliano wrote his Symphony #3 that was a huge Commission, the University of Texas Commission that, gosh, probably 20 years ago, maybe, maybe further, I remember hearing that piece for the first time and being blown away. Like there was nothing really at that time for the winds that just, I mean, gosh, what an incredible piece of music, that piece. I'm sure it'd be more expensive now, but that was $100,000 if I remember correctly, something like that. But John Corigliano was, I mean, it's a huge name and hadn't written really for wins. Man, I would love, I would love to see us begin to use our finances in a way that moves art forward differently. Not just the outdoor side of it, but the indoor side of it and the profession itself. Like what are we doing to give back to the profession? So that would be the first one. This is my other one. And I, I can tribute this to Steve Davis and I still believe it. I was on the podium in my doctorate and he stopped me because I was quite the technician. And he said, David, is this ever going to be perfect? Which is a weird question. And you know, the answer's no, even though we're trying to reach the highest level of excellence possible, the answer is no. So I said no, it will not. Then get to the music, get to the music that is stuck with me. It's it affected our writing of the directed listening model of how do we build programs and cultures that are centered around music. We don't we can't stop teaching skills. We have to do that. We have to teach listening awareness. We have to teach our students to match tonal energy. We have to teach them to play together. All of those things are important. If we don't have those things, we, the music isn't going to be right. We the, the, the depth of artistry is lost. But if you wait until the very end to talk about artistry, to explain how what's the intent of this line, then it's almost too late. So I in our quest for perfection, it will never be perfect. So get to the music. That doesn't mean ignore the other things. It means you have to go back to intentionally. You have to intentionally bring music into the conversation. It's how we speak to the ensemble. It's how we discuss the music. It's how we talk about fixing things. So that's a long story. And this is I could there's a soapbox there for sure, but.
All right. Do you have any, or do you have any recommendations for books that have inspired you throughout your professional journey?
The Directed Listening Model, if you haven't read the Directed Listening model, folks, it's a incredible book. Everything we just talked about, it's kind of in there. But no, realistically that is a good book and it's sitting right here.
Do you have one? I have one too. Look, it's right at my desk. Twins I love. There's a business writer, his name is Patrick Lincione, and he writes these. They're short books, they're easy reads and they're allegorical. It's, I think they work for everybody. I started using them in student leadership or with my student leadership when I was teaching at Kansas. And it's they're just fantastic. One of the books that I love is called The Five Dysfunctions of a Team. It's, it really is incredible. I wish more people would read it because the, it's really interesting. The absence of vulnerability causes conflict. The problem is conflict can be very positive if there's a foundation of trust. Trust allows a vulnerability. Vulnerability means that conflict is information. It, that's it. It's information that's being passed back and forth. We use that as information as opposed to weaponizing it against another person. Well, I think differently than you, therefore, you know, So it's that conceptually that started brewing in my brain 25 years ago reading that book. And I started putting that into leadership ideas as well. I want, I wanted to empower my students, but to do that, I have to build a culture of trust so that the, the vulnerability is present, which the idea of conflict, it's, it's productive conflict. It means we can disagree, but then we choose the outcome together and then move forward. And because it's just information, it's not emotional. And yeah, if you're out there. In the in the directed listening model with the with the concept of articulation. Yes, we did do that. So if you're out there, I encourage you to look up the definition of articulation in like Groves dictionary or a music dictionary and see what that definition is. And then ask yourself, have I been using that word correctly? And then just leave it at that. And if you read the book, you're going to realize how wrong David and Christophe, We're just going to leave that where it is.
All right. Clearly, Anyway, all right, so for the final question and arguably the most important, Professor Clemmer, what is your favorite time signature?
Well, Doctor Pasquale, I've given this much thought as one of the cofounders of the Common Time podcast. I think that I would. It would do a great service disservice I should say if I didn't say common time. So I am going to stick with common time and but I'm going to give it some reasoning behind it. I think common time, I, I don't know why we call it common time. Is it because it's the most common that was ever out there before And then I really don't know. It's just 4/4.
I wouldn't argue that it is.
Right. I, I don't think it probably is. I would say 3-4 probably was earlier. But in any case, common time to me when you think about it from a conductor, if I'm conducting in common time, I don't have to think about it at all, right? I don't have to think, which frees me to just move. I can communicate and I don't have to think about 12121231212123. I have to think about that, but I don't. So I say all of that to say common time to me is a free space. It allows me to be more expressive and therefore common time.
Well, I can't thank you enough, David, for this outstanding conversation. Thank you for what you do for the profession of music education. Thank you children's for teachers for me. I look up to you. I learned from you. You, you know how much I love you. So thank you for your time today and.
Thank you, Professor. I look forward to interviewing you. I look forward to the conversation and that everybody is a wrap. That's it for today's episode of the Common Time Podcast. And thank you for spending time with us. We hope that today's conversation will give you something useful to take back to your students and your program. And if you enjoy this episode, make sure you subscribe so you don't miss what's coming up. And if you know another director who might benefit from this, please share it with them. Also, don't forget that you're able to nominate a music educator for our Standing Ovation program. The link to submit is in the show notes below. Thanks again for joining us on the Common Time podcast. As always, keep making music and keep making a difference.