Larry Livingston

Welcome to season 2 of Common Time Podcast. I'm David Clemmer.

And I'm John Pasquale.

And we're back to inspire and empower music educators with practical advice, thought provoking conversations, and stories from some of the best in the business. Let's dive into another incredible episode. Welcome, everyone. Our guest today is Maestro Larry Livingston from Los Angeles, CA. Welcome, Professor Livingston.

Thank you for having me, happy to be here.

We are very excited and honored to have you today. Professor Livingston is known worldwide as a conductor, but he's not just a conductor, he's an educator and administrator, motivational speaker, and I could not be more excited and honored to have you with us. So thank you again, John. Why don't you get it started?

Thanks, David. Hello, Professor, good afternoon. It's certainly good to see you. So I'm just going to start off right away talking about your approach to conducting. Having seen many of your concerts and just hearing the product, it is just unbelievable. So how has your approach to conducting evolved over the years? And then what experiences have you had that have most significantly impacted your philosophy of conducting?

That's a question we could spend a lot of time on, and I'll try to be economical in responding. I think the best answer I could give about how I arrived at this particular philosophical and pedagogical approach is a sequence of people that I worked with, who I played under, who I learned from or better stole from. I started out playing in Revelli's band. My dad was my high school band director. So I grew up in a musical family. My dad wrote Eastern Michigan's fight song. So I think it would have been shocking if I had not gone on in music. But I went to Michigan and I played in the Russian tour band, the famous one. And Revelli was a tremendous teacher, wonderful ideas, and he was at the end of the day a tremendous inspiration and a pain in the neck. And so what I walked away from him with was ideas of how to make sound, how to make an ensemble sound, and what are some techniques or approaches that can quickly fix problems. And so one of the things that I deduced from Revelli — not that he did this, but what I've come to and try not to do all the time — is what I call conceptual teaching. So instead of circumstantial rehearsing and saying to the clarinets, you're rushing in measure 7, I try to identify what's the root cause of this and then say it's not just measure 7. Write this on your forehead in blood the rest of your life: when you run into this circumstance and you have fast notes in a fast tempo, you're going to freak out and go too fast. So the idea is to assemble a litany of how things work, how does music, or how do real musicians respond to notation? And Revelli did that without realizing it, and I kind of took that example and made it really core to what I tried to do. Then I went to Luther College after I graduated. Weston Noble, who was a legend — people may have forgotten, but he was a tremendous person and musician. He was the band director at Luther. Luther was a really good band. I went there, I was 23 years old — crime against nature. I'm teaching people my age and I had the varsity band, but I went to watch Weston's rehearsal. My first thought was this is not going to be good. Why? He's not mad at the band. He's not making them wrong. And then I noticed in his choir rehearsals, the students were holding hands and he created an aura in the room. And that aura was based on another element that I have tried to cultivate, which is: at the end of the day, it's about those people. And that means that if you're doing an Allstate or working as a guest conductor, learn the names of everybody right away. So at my age — 407 — my memory is not quite as sharp as it once was, but I still try to do it. I discovered that if you say, hey, you in the back, you're playing too loud, as opposed to, Joanne, I love what you're doing, it's just a little less sound — that personalizing of it is something that I attribute to the influence of Weston. Plus Weston believed, as I do, that everyone who's born has an A inside. I don't mean 440. I mean a level of achievement that is extraordinary. And what we're up to is not forcing them to play better, but helping them navigate the highway to that excellence, and then releasing it, setting them free. And so that's a second premise of mine. A third premise is — and I think I share this with all of the band and wind ensemble people of this generation and maybe the one before — if you want to make an artistic statement, the best way to get there is not listening to a lot of band music, but listening to great orchestral music. Now, asterisk: there are a lot of wonderful band pieces and a lot more happening now. But the point is, if you're trying to think about phrasing, color, the shape of a musical idea, what does forte mean — all of those things — for me, the reservoir of great orchestral music is a tremendous resource for informing whatever I would do with the wind band. And even though I, as Bob Reynolds would say, I'm also a traitor like Larry Rachleff and Don Schleicher and on and on, I still love doing wind band. I have no sense that it's something I'd rather not do. I love doing it, but I don't listen to band music a lot because I am trying to get deeper into the well. And the best way for me to do that is to go into a well that's so deep that you cannot get to the bottom. And what I mean by that is — little parentheses here — there's a reason why Mozart is more listened to than Clementi. There's a reason that Beethoven has more recordings — well, forgot that, that's gone — more people tuned into Beethoven than Hummel, more people who are going to listen to Dvorak than another friend of his whose name I suddenly forgot. And the reason is the best composers, in my view, knew more about the human condition. So when you're listening to Mahler, for example, Mahler's exploring the entire encyclopedia of what it means to be human: preoccupied with death, the sense of ecstasy, surprise, bad jokes, anger, rue, tenderness. And those composers, encoded in sound, have found a way to realize that what we're doing is talking about what it means to be human. And so that's a third element. And that's one of the reasons I jumped ship and went over to the dark side, because I wanted to get better at understanding music in general. And ironically, studying Dvorak's G major Symphony helps me do Sousa. Now you may think that's a big leap, but so that's a third element. And then — if I keep going like this we'll be here until your hair colors look like mine — I'll try to be a little more efficient with time. But the next thing which has become very central to my music ed quest is that all music counts, all of it. So the idea that there is a hierarchical musical relationship — up here we have Mozart and Bach and those clowns, and down here is Frank Erickson, and down here is hip hop — I disagree. It's all music and it all counts. Music from around the world, the relationship of humanity to music in all of its variance, is essential to what it means to be alive. In fact, as my friend Ben Zander says, you can't really be fully human without music. It doesn't have to be my music. It doesn't have to be you playing the clarinet. Its ubiquity and its penetrating capacity to arrest the human sense of what's going on in the world — such that it kidnaps your attention and you can forget you're going to die one day — how about that? And so I put all the music up on that screen and you can take whatever you want from it. That's because what I want to do as a music educator is to balance two very important focuses. One is excellence. So despite my quite broad appetite, excellence still counts. A band that plays really well, to me, is a valid goal, but it's an incomplete goal. And the reason it's incomplete is if your goal is to win the contest, get straight A's, and then have the losing band become indentured servants of your kids, I think you are on the wrong road. So excellence is on one side of the equation, and the other side of it is teaching them so they don't need you. So in my fantasy high school band program at Larry Livingston High School, the seniors can conduct the band because they've been equipped pedagogically by the conductor to understand how music works at a fundamental level and then how you fix stuff. So I will never vary from the commitment to excellence. But I also think that what you really want is that kids going on to become a plumber or a chef or a lawyer — they don't care — but they are going to have music for life. So my crusade is: going on in music is a bodacious, dangerous decision. And if that isn't nested in your cerebellum and your bones, you shouldn't do it, because it's a very tough road — very rewarding, but very tough. So when I do an Allstate sometime, I say, OK, raise your hand if you want to be a musician. And always some kids will raise their hand. And my response is, really? And then I pause and I say, good for you, but I just want you to know that's a decision which is pregnant with chance and disappointment. So go for it. Don't let your mom talk you out of it. She's going to tell you're an idiot: you want to be a professional musician, there's no money, there's no jobs, etcetera, we want you to be a lawyer. And then you have to stand strong and say, I might be wrong, but this is in me. Music isn't something I do, it's something I am. Then I say to the other kids...

You OK? No, it's just resonating very well with me. That was powerful, wasn't it. Both. That was great, yeah.

Then I ask what are the rest of the kids going to do? And they start — occasionally they're shy at first. And of course I give each of the first people to volunteer a $100 bill. I know — I get them going. And I say, OK, let's stop with this because I want you to know that I might look like an older person — I've got the fake hair, it's really black, I dye it white in the morning. But the reality is in 10 years, I'm coming to your house and I hope you've been a successful janitor. I don't care. Pick a profession that you feel you'd like to do, and I hope it's successful enough so that you are happy. Maybe you have a couple kids, a dog named Billy and Alexis. And when I knock on the door, I want to hear you playing. Even mediocre French horn or viola — maybe snare drum, that would be a reach — but I want you engaged in music, because all the data in neuroscience is in, and it does have a profound neurological effect on you. We know that oxytocin and dopamine are being fired all the time by the neurotransmitters in your brain when you do music. So it will, in my opinion, also keep you safe. It will give you a spiritual experience that nothing can quite match. And if you don't believe me, do me a favor: next time you practice — and by the way, I'm also coming to your house to make sure you're practicing — the next time you practice, go into a room and shut the door, whatever. And I want you to take your watch and put it outside, not in the room. And then I want you to practice until you think you've reached an end point that's useful. And then before you look at your watch, I want you to guess: how long have I been in here? And music will provide you an experience of time that replaces the clock. And in the end, you lose yourself in it like a sanctuary from God. And it doesn't get better than that. And your whole life you'll be chasing that experience. Now let me just pause and say to those of you who don't want to go on in music: I think great. Do not choose a career because your guidance counselor says you'd be good at it. You don't have to choose a career when you're putting on the robe and going to the graduation party at age 18. Choose something which is so fulfilling to you that you can't wait to get up in the morning and go do it. And then you'll replace the obligation of work with the opportunity of life.

Maybe we should pause there — my kids may never ask him a question.

There's just so much wisdom in there and there are so many directions I could take this, but I'm curious — my first experience watching you, Professor, was for the Texas Allstate Orchestra. This has been quite a few years ago, but you conducted Mahler 1, if I remember correctly.

I was 10 years old then.

And I was probably too. But it's interesting — I remember the thing that I was most struck by in that performance, I mean the performers were amazing and what you did with the piece was amazing, but what I remember the most was at the end of the piece, thunderous applause, and you immediately left the podium and went to the oboe player and you asked that individual to stand. And it was in this most respectful way, like you were honoring them. And then you went player by player, inviting them to stand and acknowledging the gift that they had given to all of us that day. And it was a culture — it was something that I hadn't quite seen. And I'm a Texas band kid. I just hadn't seen that kind of — I don't know if I would call it love or adoration, I'm not even sure. But so my question here, because we do have a lot of music educators listening: when you're working with young musicians, or younger musicians — not necessarily little kids, but not professionals — what are the core skills and qualities that you would aim to develop beyond the technical proficiency aspect, if that makes sense?

Yeah, that's a well-articulated question and — no pun intended — the bandwidth of response could be quite wide. I think it starts with first understanding really what's in the piece. And I don't mean the violas come in measure 11. I mean all of it. I was working with a young man in my studio who's not majoring in conducting, but he wants to be a college wind ensemble person. And so he was doing his recital in a few days and he was doing the Holst First Suite. And of course that's really one of the evergreens, one of the staples, and it will always be. And I asked him, how come this piece is still around? What is it? And he was giving me some, I think, useful responses, and I said, let's go through the score. Look at the first movement — this is not Bruckner, this is not a huge platform, but Holst has made this beautiful repeated chaconne have its own destiny because of the use of percussion, the reharmonization, the inversion of the intervals. He has manipulated, enriched, and enabled this piece to be important. And so I told this young man, if you want to be a respected wind ensemble conductor in the wind ensemble world, don't go to dinner with a bunch of established figures and not know the whole thing — everything, without exception. So it's not just a nice tune. And so I think the first thing is to really do the work. And all the conductors that I've learned from — or to use the Yiddish word, stolen from — share that one thing: they know the score. And knowing the score, to me, means being free to radiate, respond, and connect with these other human beings who are sitting in front of you, remembering that it is hard to play. Conducting is very easy. Playing is hard. You don't think so? Take French horn lessons and then play the opening of Bruckner 4 — that's where you're going to become an alcoholic in 30 seconds. Because all of this is fraught with challenge. So you've got to know the score. And even more important is: who are these people? Are they just a set of programmable AI substitutes or are they real, living and breathing people? And for me, the translation of what's going on in the score ultimately involves metaphors and concepts that can't replace the music but can be understood in trying to get to that place. Cellos, I like how you're playing that passage, but I'd like you to play it this time as though it were the last time you'll ever play the cello. Horns, I like how well you're doing, but you play like that — seriously, it's a joke — please find some other way to approach this so we see actually what the composer is about there. Timpani, can you play that from the head? Now that's a message that string players understand. And what I explained is that timpanists stop hitting things and begin to massage and make sounds that are born in the context of the sonic environment where they live. So that's the second thing. And then I spend time doing reversals, talking to students not about the music but about their lives. How are you doing, what's going on? Because I've learned the hard way that every kid sitting in front of you has a story about his or her life that you have no idea about. So finding out who are these people — not just in the aggregate, but who are these individuals and what are they dealing with? Do they get dinner at home? Are both parents around? Is dad happy with you? And sometimes you get personal. But the thing is, it's my one chance. I get three days and then we disappear. And I want to leave them something. And most of all, I want to leave them with the notion of the value that they have as human beings — not because they're rich or handsome or famous, but just because they live and breathe. And I think as music educators, we have a rare opportunity to inculcate a sense of personal worth to these students. I don't mean making them cocky, etcetera at all. I'm talking about allowing them to feel that there's a reason they're on this planet and there is an opportunity for them to express that in a way which in the end inspires them to want to bond with the community. And thanks to COVID and political strife, we've got a country now that's very divided and community seems to have sunk below as a as a core objective. I mentioned Mikhail Chick sent me high is it was now dead. But he was great a psychologist and he wrote a book about the word flow. He's the one that used the word flow to describe what we do and when we're doing music. And he said every human being can be stilled on into, ideally a couple fundamental goals. One is differentiation that each person wants to feel somehow. I'm unique. I'm not unique because I win things. I'm not unique because I'm tall. I'm unique because it never wasn't me before and never will be again. And I think learning their names, talking to them, treating them with absolute respect and kindness helps them feel a sense of personal worth. I was doing, I think Mahler too, maybe in Texas. And it was a wonderful soul for English horn and A and a 16 year old girl playing English horn played this soul. It's very, very brief and it destroyed me. I, I still remember that moment and I stopped the orchestra and I said to her, no matter how long you live, you have placed your heart in the center of this piece. And I will never forget this. And next time I do this, I'm going to hope to find something that has that same intimacy with the human adventure. And I think this is me. I'm not recommending modus operandi for other people, but this is why I do it. And someone asked me the other day with ridiculous, ridiculous idea that I'm not immortal. I don't know where they got that. I said when you are on your last legs, the end, when the end is there, what is it you want to feel your contribution was? And they said it was the headlines. And you know, running for great music schools and Ruge is no, the effect I had on other people. It's simple, the way in which my crusade allowed others to feel safe, valued and purposeful. So that's really the essence of. So when you saw me identify the OBO player, I mean, think of the itinerary. First you got to buy reeds. Oh God. Then you've got to learn how to make reeds. Oh, double God. Then you've got to get a, get a good Oval. Good luck on that. Then it's endless. And when you think about 2025 and this happens to me every once in a while, I'm working with a bassoon player and I'm going cannot believe this play an instrument from the medieval era. The technique of playing it was created by the murky Desad. It cost a trillion dollars and if you look at it, it breaks. It has no herb appeal in the cafeteria when you're trying to impress other people, you play the what I remember just a sidebar. I once Quincy Jones was a good friend of mine and we just did a big memorial event for him at USC and ask, I ask him once I say Q when you started playing trumpet in Bremerton, WA when you were a kid after you and your dad and your brother ran away from Chicago where they were gangsters basically, why did you go seriously into music? Of course, you're tremendously talented. Why? To get girls. Exactly what it said to get to make girls be interested in him. Music which you draw itself. I think in this moment in the evolution of our country of whatever, whatever you call what we have now is it's never been more important to have nurturing experiences between teachers and students, ones in which the teacher can remember how come you're doing music. And almost without exception, it was a another teacher who turned that light bulb on could be in the 6th grade or 4th grade or 11th grade. And all of a sudden there's that metamorphosis where you essentially abandoned the idea of just up just another person. And, and now I have something that's distinguishing for me, and I don't care if anybody knows. I got this and all. And I think without wanting to get into the political nightmare of our time, I think the combination of COVID and other factors that will go unnamed have created a world that seems perplexing, destructive, angry and dark. And I think that means the arts and more than that, arts education and music education becomes a sacred voice to push the other way. Obviously, this America, we're going to get through this. But having a child take flute lessons and get good at playing flute, to me is a is a, is an adventure beyond description. And because you exists in time, it is different from visual art. If you go to a museum and you see a painting and you don't like it, you can walk away. If you go to a concert and you're in the audience and they're playing a piece you don't like, guess what? You're there. And the reason is that the ear is the emotional organ, not the eye. The eye has tremendous function, but the emotional register is in the ear. So I'm I'm really at this advanced age as full of spark and determination as I was when I was 20. Is what I'm about is different because I've learned by making. I think my wife said 3407 and 6. I have come to the point where I have a patina of enlightening, and that is, in the end, about embracing the treasure of humanity.

That's yeah, that's incredible. You know, this is, it's such a fascinating conversation. So I do want to just touch base or just to go, go a bit further. We were, we were, we were talking briefly or just kind of mentioning about music educators and, and just the challenging times that are currently being faced. Without getting into it too much, but throughout your career, it's important to note that you've been a passionate advocate for music education, which we are incredibly thankful for, by the way. But. So what in your view, are the most urgent issues that are facing music education today?

Yeah, I think #1 is the obvious that the marginalizing of music somehow is constantly tapping on the door. We're constantly having to deal with administrators, sometimes even parents who they know math is important and they know English is important. And then there's this frill called music. So I think developing perspectives which, which use the information from neuroscience, you want your kid to go to Harvard, have the kid fly in the band, and then you lay out why that of course that's a leap, but it's not it's not a leap that doesn't have data behind it. So I think I think the first thing is convincing people that it's essence. And if you go back to classical antiquity, look at Greek culture, that music was core even to the romance. The second thing I think is to ideally make the band room, the music room, where all manner of music can happen. And if that student is going to go on and have music in his or her life, it should be possible to do even if there is not a community band to play. How about Chambers? And how about the idea that it doesn't matter what the music is? You know, there's a really interesting history there. For years, and I can say this from my experience at Michigan, Vander Richards absolutely said no jazz. No, not jazz. Jazz is. That's dumbing down everything. And then he started realizing, if I want to get one at the contest, I got to have saxophones. You know what I'll do? I'll do a transactional deal. I'll say, I'll let you have jazz. You could play saxophone in my in my band sets. How saxophone found its way in believe it or not, in my opinion, then hip hop's been around for almost 40 years. Kids have hip hop on their MP3 players. I am not a hip hop fan and I, I, that's not something I listen to. But if you think about the rich array of music that is powerful and attaches to people, it's not just classical music in band music or Christian music. And it's not just jazz all I mean, if you don't think that rock'n'roll has genius people in it, tune into Donald Fagan, who wrote most of Steely Dan's music. That's you guys are young, but you listen to the lyrics. It's some unbelievably imaginative. So the idea of embracing A wider array of music. And I know schools where let's talk about mariachi. Marsha Neal, old friend of mine, Las Vegas supervisor, music goes to Las Vegas, sings the Mozart Requiem. That's what she is for fun. And there's a lot of Mexican families that have moved into Vegas and they're not that interested in buying into that culture. So she said, you know what, I am a musical missionary. It doesn't have to be Mozart. So she got a couple of mariachi people who are really good and brought him into the school, and now she's running a mariachi consulting thing. But there are all over the country thousands of mariachi things that are happening now, again, in this hierarchical bias that's down here. Well, actually there is no down here It is. It's just music. I worked. I was on the board of the Guitar Center. I don't play guitar, I don't have a Marshall lamp, etcetera, but I was doing, it was a business commitment that I made that was provided to me and so I started learning more about guitar. If you have a successful high school music program, my first question is how many students do you have in the high school and how many are doing music in some form, whether it's choir, band, jazz band, orchestra, mariachi, whatever. Piano lab, Syosset High School in near and then on Long Island, 54% of the students in the school are doing music, but they have everything. So songwriting, piano lab, not just the traditional groups. And I talked to the band director. I visited that school usually when I was on the board of the Guitar Center, I became the Crusader Rabbit music head. Seems like I'm always ending up being the Crusader Rabbit music guy. And so I went around the country and met tons of people because we bought Music and Arts, which is now the biggest family music store chain in the country that's owned by Guitar Center. And I asked him, tons of people, you know, principals, high school band directors, choir directors, college music head faculty, what's the best way for us to fire this engine even hotter. So I said, someone said go to say. So I went there. I watched the band director, his name is Larry Ballaroo, and he rehearsed the band in a separation way. So they played through a piece and he had a recording of the piece by Eastman band or something. And he'd say, OK, Trump let's we just what's wrong with that? Trump was how do we fix that? So it was like math class rather than I'm the, you know, the expert, I'm the sage on this stage. No, I'm the guide on the side so that there's an engagement process. And when he got off the podium I said that was really wonderful. I learned a lot from watching you. And I said how many bands you got? He said we got four. Oh really cool. We don't have a room big enough for bands 2 and 3, otherwise that would just be a second band. And I said what's the 4th band? And I using my Ravelli bias, I said those are probably the not so proficient. He said no, the 4th man has some of the smartest kids in the school, but they don't want to practice and work hard on music enough to be in the top group because they want to go to Harvard, etcetera. And we don't want them to quit. I never forgot that. We don't want them to quit. So they embrace everybody and sustaining musical involvement to me is page one of the recipe. The last page of the recipe is. Are you doing an audit of the your students 5 and 10 years after they graduate? Because you can get emails to all of them now. How many of you are doing anything with music? And I don't want to hear one of my trombone players went to Juilliard. That's anecdote. I want statistical Evans. 42% of my kids in some form or other are still doing music. Those are my 2 metrics and I will share this with you. Years ago I was during a clinic in Texas and I love Texas. I'm doing the Texas Allstate Orchestra again in 2026. So I'm I'll be back in the saddle. But I went to this district, I don't remember what it was and I was doing it like region 14,000 or what. I don't know what the region, but like region 18 band or something. And this young guy picked me up at the airport and he was just bubbling with enthusiasm. So wow, what a great attitude. I bet that's really inspiring for your students. It was just his second year. He was the number two person in the band director assistant. He said, no, that's not what I'm smiling. Well, why is it? Is it me? I'm OK, You know, I, I'm wonderful. I didn't do that. I said, what's going on? And he said we just won something really important. I thought, OK, competition. He goes, no, I said, so tell me what happened. He said every once in a while some parent will call the principal and say we love the band program, but we want to have an orchestra program. And it's driving us nuts, the band people. So how did you get happy? He said the main band director figured out how to solve that. We went to the principal and said we'd like to propose that we start an orchestra program. And the principal said wow, that's right because I get parents calling me about it. And they said Yep, it's time. Now here's the budget that we will need to do this. We will need 3 new staff, 10 double bases, we will need another rehearsal room, 8 cello instruments, and we will need 3 or 4 specialist private teachers. And the principal looked at them and said, are you crazy? And then we'll say we want to do this the right way. And he said we cannot afford that. And then they faved, they faked being glum and they walked out and then went to the bar for martini and said we got it, we solved it. We don't have to worry about an orchestra starting in our school. To me, that's an Antichrist of what should happen. Not that starting anything new was easy. I'm not saying that. But Amanda, Drink Water's an old friend of mine. You know who that is? Very well, I used. To teach Amanda's such tremendous person and I spoke to her years ago about this issue and she said to me one day because I did a guest conductor thing for her and she said you know, I'm really since we chat in trouble. What is it? I see all these kind of kids walking down the hall who are not doing music and I realized that the superb achievement in the band program, which is phenomenal, maybe isn't the final complete We're done answer to what we owe more kids doing music. Teach them so they don't quit or better, teach them so they're so capable and inspired and knowledgeable that they can actually go out and coach the Chamber of their plan. They can be at an agent for sustaining music in that community.

It is so insightful in so many ways and I hope that people listening are really taking every bit of this to heart. It is absolutely critical.

Yeah, and you're, well, you're, you're hitting so many different points to Professor Livingston. And you, you mentioned something a moment ago and I want to dig into it a little bit. And we, I don't take a lot of time on this question, but I do, I'm curious because I know your experiences. You've been in administration as well as a motivational speaker for businesses. And you, you mentioned being on the board for Guitar Center. So you have experience in that world, but I'm curious if there's a connection that with music as well. So my question is, is what role does leadership and communication play sort of from the business world, if you, if you, if you may as an effective conductor and how do directors cultivate those skills? Were they important at all or not at all?

Yeah, I think it all counts. I think the assembly of all those variables will be different from person to person, and it depends how one is achieving transformation. Because that's what we're looking for, that by being there, we're transforming the sense of what it means to be not only a musician but to be alive. But I'd say, I think it would be great for every music Ed program in the United States to require one semester of entrepreneur class from the Business School in their school, in their university. I tell all my students that should you go do that? Why not? This is this is a tremendous resource. So yes, leadership, I think developing techniques for how you market an idea. I mean, here's an here's an example. You go under the principal and you go, all right, thanks for your time. You know, I'm working on our band program and we need a new tuba. And then you go to the principal. Do you like music? What's the principal going to say no. And he said he, he or she says yes. You go, OK, so here's the budget. I would really appreciate and if you would buy tuba for a band program. And so the principal takes that piece of paper and he moves it over to the side where he puts on a stack of 47 other pieces of paper of budget requests from all over the school. So, so that's one approach. Another approach is, you know, I really enjoy the time we have together. I'm busy, I'm working hard. But I appreciate having a principal like you because you understand that at the end of the day, we're just trying to inspire and illuminate the world for these kids. And we see that in you. So all of us who are teaching you appreciate that, that idea. And so I know you have lots of demands, but we need some help in order for us to take the next step. And that is we need another TUBO. We need a good instrument. It's not, they're not, not cheap. And I just wanted to say before you respond, I did some research recently and I checked the graduation rates of our school and our general SAT score data. And I compared it with this school 6 miles away, which has the same demographic, all the same fundamental traits, and a lot higher percentage of their kids are graduating or going on to colleges or better colleges. And they have a really wonderful band with a full to the section. So I just, you know, in the sphere of trying to help you, I'm giving you here an idea that you may find has some dividends for you as the caretaker. And so, and then I recommend and you know, that music is a powerful force for neurological development. And the principle goes, yeah, I know that. So all the smart kids do music. That's why their scores look better. That's why your comparison doesn't work. And so I show them the Florida, the Florida study, which is pretty hard to shout down 190,000 kids serving from all kinds of schools. So then I go, well, you know, I knew you'd say that because you're smart. Do you smoke? And likely the answer's going to be no, why don't you smoke? Because it gives you cancer. Actually, there is no absolute, incontestable, incontestable data that says that smoking causes lung cancer, but the incident is so high that most people don't smoke. There's no absolute data that playing the tuba is going to get you into Harvard. But if we compare this to other school, there's a lot of what I might call metadata that's worth looking at. So I tell these young music educators, make sure you use the word data a lot because that's what principals set up and go, wow, I got to pay attention to this. Don't start talking about harmonic language and espercivo. They don't care. Get them right in the in the midsection where they live.

Yeah. I love the entrepreneurs. Of course. Yeah, have more kids in the band. That's fantastic. I love the entrepreneur idea in mentioning that because it is kind of an important connection to what we do because I'll often times running a program is running a small business unless you're like John, it's running a big business. I mean it really is that. But now I got another question. If we kind of flip that now to an ensemble director wanting to raise the level of the ensemble makes them better. This is specific to the ensemble leader. What advice would you give the director in terms of both kind of rehearsal strategy but also their own personal development, which I'm really curious about?

You mean for the students on personal development?

No, for the directors.

The directors on personal development. Well, first of all, I think it's obvious but often lost in the shuffle that they're not going to do anything unless they want to. So you have to find a connection. And I've my strength's often critical to develop a committee, a leader group, kids in the band, in the orchestra, kids in the mariachi group, and to talk with them about take them to lunch. And I just want to share something with you and then I want to get your input. I think we're doing well. I love what we've got. It's good. But I think there's another level of fulfillment, not just getting good ratings at the contest, but actually in terms of your own development neurologically and spiritually. And to do that, we've got to find some highways, some, some approach that will do that and, and to deputize the students then to take on a leadership role with their friends in the cafeteria, wherever and, and lay out there. Here's what I think we could do if we can convince people about what it takes to get there. So to me, that's essential. You can't just do it because you want it. They have to want it and they have to know what's the payoff if we do that. And you can't say that you'll you win a lottery and go to Paris. I mean, it's it's not definable in those terms. And then I think also there if you go to a bookstore, assuming there are any left or get on just Google inspirational books. There must be now 40,000 books on how to light the flame. How do we ignite a situation? And almost all of those have two things, some good stuff and a lot of stuff that the other books have, but said in a different way. So, you know, part of the problem with being a Bobby School music educator is you start being a music adventure on college. You think I can't wait to do this because I love music. And then you get to the job and you realize about 1% of my time is using the rest of the time is filling out forms, calling parents, submitting a budget, etcetera, etcetera. And after a while you sort of forget what drove you to do this. So I think you have to cut through the avalanche of stuff that will kidnap your time and leave you dry and just start and say, why am I doing this? Because I took this job because I thought we could grow. I think we're growing, but not enough. What's the impediment to growing more? Could be me, not the kids. Don't start with the kids. What is it that I need? I need to do differently. And there are a variety of ways to do that, various reward systems, etcetera. But I have found also that getting the community to buy and, and the parents, in the end, you have to be a salesperson. You, you have to market this thing. And having the, having the principal come and conduct a concert, having the PTA present sit in a reversal, the engagement so that there's a buzz. And part of that challenge is the buzz starts with marching band. Almost everybody who has a high school band program is either blessed with or stuck with, depending on your point of view, marching band. And my and my opinion about this is marching band within its lane is a great thing. The problem is letting it occupy the whole Rd. So having a good marching band that plays together, that plays in tune, that's using oral skills does not simply out there, you know, moving up and down a field, you can cultivate values in the marching band. And rather than fighting it, typically the principal is going to decide how you're doing. If no phone rings on Saturday morning, I'm being blunt, but yeah, I hope that you OK. And so you might the music, the music program is X, but the principal's going to say it's y ^2 because Friday everything seemed good and no parents called me on Saturday to complain. So you start with that and you use that. OK, Mr. Miss Principal, I'm glad you're happy with what we're doing, but I, I need to tell you that. And the ultimate objective, I'm guessing you're wanting our students to be really good at math so they can use it. I'm wanting my music kids to be good, not so they can March in a band when they graduate. I want them to have the full value of music. And to do that, I owe them something. I'm not giving up. And I think when teachers meet with principals and, you know, being a principal now is horrendous, horrible job. You can't win no matter how many good things. The phone rings and some parent who may be crazy is mad because Johnny did something. Most principals who are still connected to the why it's important to be a good principal find it very compelling when the teacher comes in without being a crybaby and says, you know, I think I owe them more. And that means we owe them more. I want to do better. I'm, I'm, I'm taking a course this summer in business administration. I'm working it because I want to be the poster child for making a difference, not saying to the kids you make the difference. And most principals are surprised to hear that because what they get mostly is complaining of I don't like my office, the salaries are bad, and then all of the usual crybaby stuff. And that's like, oh, no, not again. Someone comes in and says, you know, this is for me. I don't want to be an agent for more for these students. So this is what I'm trying to do and I need your help. I want that fix it. I'm doing it, but I need your help and there's and there's no money involved.

Next time it'll be money, right?

Yes, please.

So you Larry, we have come to the time in our conversation where we ask our guests 33 rather short answer questions and we're just trying to we I'm just curious about your.

I got that short answer that was nicely. You slid it in a very nice leisure.

So. That's funny. You know, you know, trumpets. Trumpets. You really sound good. It's too loud. Now. Let's start up. But you know, we, we, we are so excited to have you back and do Part 2 of this because we, we have so many questions for you, you know, and we, and I, I mean, me personally and David personally just speak on his behalf. I mean, we are learning so much from you. And I think our listeners need to hear every single word that you have to say. But so I'm going to ask you, I'll, I'll take the first of three questions, the first of which is do you have a soapbox topic? A soapbox topic. Something that's a soapbox topic for you in music or band, or something that's going to fire you up in a very short amount of time.

Yeah, like a 2 minute soapbox.

Yeah, I probably have a lot of soapbox question, but I think the principal 1 is you're only going to get this life, you're going to die. So when you think about the time you have on Earth, go to a cemetery and you'll see on the tombstones a birth date and a death date. Live the dash to its fullest. Live the dash that.

That's extremely powerful. Thank you. Wow, yeah. Yeah, I feel like the next couple are one of them is kind of a humorous one, but serious. Let's I'll skip to the second one and this one could be anything as well as is there a particular book or books that you that have inspired you sort of in your journey that you could share with our listeners that they, that might be helpful for them?

Oh gosh, first of all, I'm a devoted reader. I'm. I've always read a lot and there are many books that I could think about. I think Mikhail Chick sent me heis book on Inflow is one of those because I've read it many times. The 2nd is my good friend Stephen Nachmanovic's book Free Play. If you don't have free play, every human being that I've ever met should read it. It's phenomenal book. You don't have to read it in order and it's all about improvisation in art and life, but it's much more for than that. And there's a sequel called He believes that life is a verb. And I agree with him, not a noun. The art of is his book, The art of is and it's full of stories and, and anyway, those are those are some.

Perfect love. It got a lot to think about after this, which is awesome. So I'm going to ask you a question that's that. That comparatively could seem a bit ridiculous and I'm embarrassed doing it now, but I'm just going to get it out there. What is your favorite time signature?

I'd say when it's 7:00 in the morning and I wake up that I woke up, you know that's a great question. I don't I don't have any favorite time signatures. I'm not quite sure how to respond to that. I'm sorry.

I like I love 54.

You know, the first piece of consequence that's in five is the soul movement from the Walt, the waltz movement from Patheti Symphony of Tchaikovsky. I didn't know that. It's a really magnificent piece in SO54. Let's say it's 5454.

So we asked that question because there's only one correct answer and that's common time. But it's just for humor, so we don't even. We just do it for fun.

As opposed to uncommon time, OK.

Exactly, Professor Livingston, this has been a fantastic hour for me personally. I am. I am just thankful. That you gave your. You've given us your time today. We are honored to have had you on. We just really appreciate it. I just want to say thank you again. Thank you so much.

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Common Time Podcast. Don't forget to follow us on social media and we'd love it if you shared with your friends as well. We'll see you next time, but until then, keep making music and keep making a difference.